If he's exonerated I agree, we do need to move on.  But he hasn't been tried yet.

Zafar,
You are right that politics involves abuse, but there is a parallel risk of inflaming the population as a whole. You can abuse Mayawati, but a large section of Dalits may view it very differently, rightly or wrongly. These things are exacerbated when a society gets herded into a corner where it feels that it has to speak for a person, no matter how complicit or innocent he may be of the crime committed. This is not restricted to Gujarat. Bengal gladly elected communists for close to three decades when the rest of the country wondered if the whole state had taken leave of its senses. Now Mamta is trying to don that same mantle of Bengali pride.
      

The problem with attaching blame on the larger population with reference to Modi is that he, in fact, turns out to be not so bad after all. In fact, then his apologists have a stronger argument about his competence in preventing riots in a society that had already been poisoned with communalism. I don't know what the truth is--probably a mixture of the two. In all this, we are also guilty of overlooking the most important factor in his reelection: that he has been a good administrator. I am quite sure his election in 02 was facilitated by riots but the same cannot be said about the subsequent elections. People miss out that for the bulk of us, at the end of the day, all we want is someone who can just provide us a decent environment to live and flourish. We are prepared to forgive his peccadillos, his motorcycles, his concubines, etc. Sadly, our so-called visionary leaders have turned out to be rascals of the purest class. Witness amul baby and his antics. In an era of privatization, he is selling 4.5% reservation to woo voters! Can you blame the voters for electing Modi?

I have written here before quite clearly that I am not a fan of Modi, but I do have trust in the highest legal system of our country and if he is exonerated by them, then no matter how much personally aggrieved I am by that judgment, I have no choice but to move on. There is no other course.

[I think it's intemperate to abuse an elected leader]

Amit, all our election campaigns revolve around abuse of elected leaders.  And not just ours - that's kind of how democracy works.

The difference is that wrt Modi, some people are finally dispensing with the fig leaf that while some elected leaders are awful, the people who repeatedly vote them into power are always good.  Squaring that circle may be a politial imperative, but you can see how it challenges logic?

Zafar,

That particular point has been made by Swapan Dasgupta in reference to Sonia Mummyji's remark that Modi was a maut ka saudagar. Now, some may claim that he may be that and much more, but I think it's intemperate to abuse an elected leader.  People naturally take things like that as a personal insult. Modi has cleverly milked that to the maximum, as any politician would.

 Amit - Gujarat keeps electing Modi because they don't care about the charges against him.  Either they don't believe them, or they don't think that a failure to maintain Raj Dharma when it comes to Muslim victims of violence is such a big deal. I don't think that what the ELM says has any influence on how Gujarat votes.

>> It was not the word Mia that bothered the Mia.

More rubbish from the ill-bred moron. Read the article, understand what  Tridip Suhrud says.

While there is ample scope for blaming Modi for Gujarat in 2002, I am amazed by the reasons offered by these assorted so-called experts on Modi's winning run in Gujarat. Swapan Dasgupta rightly points out that when you blame the whole society for a certain wrong, no matter how genuine that blame may be, then it's no suprise why Modi has been elected time and again. And we are not even talking about his administrative acumen as a factor. If such wonderful logic holds true, then we can blame the whole country for giving Congress an absolute majority after the anti-sikh riots. That, by all standards, was even worse manifestation of callousness.

Justice needs to be done to the victims. Equally, if no evidence is found of Modi's collusion, he needs to be censured only on indifference or failure of administration, which is a big failure itself. Frankly, after the recent episode of manufactured threats to Rushdie by the sundry agencies, I am starting to have doubts on Setalvad and co's case.

How warmly Barkha embraced Bandukwala,which was missing when she met the Hindus.

PNAsery:

It was not the word Mia that bothered the Mia, but the point I raised hurt his feeling.  He, in his own words confessed that after 2002 there have been fewer and fewer racial riots all over India (and same happened in Gujarat so no kudos for Modi), but in so doing he inadvertently admitted that before 2002 there were many many racial riots all over India.  This diluted his venom towards Gujarat and Mr. Modi. That bothered him. And that is why personal attack-a last resort of scoundrels (I open myself for the attack now).

Pnasery,

I know the original meaning of the word "miya". I respond to the pejorative use now. If you notice who are the persons using it, they are invariably habitual hate mongers.

What will this anti Modi industry do if he were to disappear from the scene? Find another scapegoat? I don't remember any commemoration of the 1984 riots. We won't hear from Barkha and the holy 'secular' brigade about their bosom pal Niira Radia.

@Anwaar,

When you run out of logic, you get angry and make personal attacks. By the way the word "Mia" originally means a person with honour and good social standing, a respectable person. So if someone calls you Anwaar Mia and you call him illbred, that reveals your intellect, how much you may try to project an liberal, secular, intellectual image.

Duh ! What is a 'Gandhian Scholar' ? Somebody who studies Gandhian philosphy ? Or a scholar following Gandhian way of life ?

Manish,

"One night in New York power went off for eight hours. Not a store in the down town city escaped looting. Lights came back & civilisation was restored."

That is again, a totally irrelevant hyperbole. By a coincidence, I was right there in downtown Manhattan when the lights went out. Apart from a few stray incidents (judging from police sirens), I don't remember widespread looting of stores. In fact, for quite sometime I was confused why stores had started putting their ice cream tubs on pavement. It reminded me of Chandni Chowk. So, please don't let your hatred for the US devolve into inventing stories. It only makes you sound ignorant and foolish.

What a nonsense! These neo-liberal clowns have nothing better to do except chattering utter nonsense about Gujarat riot. They blamed Mr. Modi for whole carnage, now they are targeting people of Gujarat and want them to feel guilty for post Godhra riot. However, if anyone that should be apologizing and asking for forgiveness is Muslim community of Godhara, they are the one who started this whole chain reaction.
People of Gujarat will never forget burning of Sabarmati and ghastly attack on pilgrims. This incident is etched in our heat, like a stone template, this is Gujarat’s Jallianwala Bagh, only difference is that killing was done by enemy within. We will never forget this no matter how much twist and spin secular media puts on it. Remember, a fool always forget, naïve forget and forgive, but smart may forgive but never forget.
Having said that, people of Gujarat are moving head, both Hindu and Muslim community wants to keep this incident as terrible past, and move on to build their lives. We all want to live prosperous life under the leadership of Mr. Modi or whoever that can bring non-corrupt, efficient and honest governance. Unfortunately, some of these neo-liberals and arm chair annalist, OUTSIDERS can’t sleep at night knowing people of Gujarat are happy, and proud to have Mr. Narendra Modi as their elected leader.
 

All Sickulars tried and tried.  They investigated Gujarat Riots and Mr. Modi by everybody and his brother.  When nobody could find any evidence to implicate Mr. Modi now they have taken a different route.  They say Mr. Modi is a masterful administrator.  He managed these racial riots so well that he did not leave any evidence !!  In a way a perfect murder plot so to speak.  It must hurt them like hell.

 Two infirmites of these pontifications are ( a ) There has been an attempt to link development with religiously inspired voilence. That is a false premise. ( b ) The interlocuators thoughout seem to subconciously equate Gujarat with Modi. Modi is not Gujarat . Gujratis generally cannot vive themselves with Modi's idea of ashmita. They are sensible enough to take the so called ashmita to be what it is - plain & simple demagoguy.

The riddle here is Modi's successive win in the state elections - an area social scientists should concentrate. Last time Modi campaigned for the BJP outside Gujarat is in Assam where the party drew a blank. In the ongoing elections specially in UP where BJP's stakes are very high , they would not even consider Modi to campagn for BJP.

 Gujarat's spectacular development has underwritten the de-civilising process.

This is calumny. The middle class Gujarati is a happy go lucky outgoing fun loving people. They love to make money , they equally love to spend money. Normally they do not get involved in politics, politics of progrom is far for their mind. 

In every society there would be a lumpen class whose bestial instincts could easily be incited.  These people are the tools of politicians who use them to meet their narrow political end. Gujarat is no exception. One of the incentive for rioting is loot. Compared to Muslims of  the other parts of the country , the Gujarati Muslim has always been better off financially for reasons we need not go in to here. That may be the reason religious riots could be more frequently engineered there.

Of course Modi being " perhaps the finest administrators of riots in the country. So the capacity for administration extends from managing violence, creating violence, perpetrating it, denying justice " , helped in 2002. This administration of riots is not also such a tough job either. One night in New York power went off for eight hours. Not a store in the  down town city escaped looting. Lights came back & civilisation was restored.

 KC Sharma

[While the coach-burning victims have moved on and almost forgotten or at least want to forget, the others said they will never forget and don't want to forget. What does this behaviour indicate? ]

30 people have been found guilty for the coach burning, twenty of them have been sentenced to death, another ten to life imprisonment.  Nothing will bring back the dead, but justice has been done - leaving the victims able to rebuild and move on.

The 'others' - specifically a woman who was raped - have not experienced justice.  In fact that lady had great difficulty even registering an FIR, and while the courts take their time even calling her to depose (justice delayed is justice denied) her rapists walk free.  Do you think that this is just?  How can you compare that with a case where the perpetrators have been severely punished?

>> So now you are going to generate hate against Gujarati Muslims? Does your perfidy know no limits at all?

When Tridip calls Gujarati society (referring to those who voted for Modi, implying Hindus) as criminals for throwing up Modi, you call him a Gandhian scholar. When Nagraj calls out the Gujarati Muslim community for throwing up Jinnah, you accuse him of spreading hate.

Barkha Dutt and Rajdeep interviewed the victims of the coach burning as also the victims of the riots there after. The contrast in the aproach to life after the incidents of the two was noticeable. While the coach-burning victims have moved on and almost forgotten or at least want to forget, the others said they will never forget and don't want to forget. What does this behaviour indicate? 

Irreverent,

>>>> "Bin Laden was not a leader of any community..... "
>> Try explaining that to those who prayed for him.
 

There are idiots in all communities. Just look at yourself!

An act of desperation. These secus (Yes - There still are so many without Padma awards ???) could not touch Modi - legally or politically. Now the hate merchants are out to break Gujarati society by class (Urban middle class vs rest), and caste (dalits and tribals vs rest). Their game plan : If the mud thrown at Modi for 10 years does not stick, let us throw it at Urban middle class Gujaratis. If it does not stick let us try upper caste and OBCs (remember Modi is OBC).

>> "Bin Laden was not a leader of any community..... " - Anwaar

Try explaining that to those who prayed for himi, from Kashmir to Kerala. 

Try explaing that to the sickular parties of Bihar and UP where Osama ji's lookalikes are a big electoral draw.

>>By contrast, Rajiv administered the riots very efficiently, but was extremely poor in all other areas.

For this stark contrast he was given Bharat Ratna.

>>The second point clearly is that when you say that Gujarati society has been criminalized, we have to say that it is a society like Gujarat which throws up Modi and not vice versa.

To summarize this perverts thinking – We the intellectuals and social scientists of India decide who is a ‘mass murderer’. Thereafter, those unwashed masses (also called the electorate) have to take our word as gospel and vote against the mass murderer. If they do otherwise, we from our high pedestal will condemn the entire people and brand them as criminals! This charge will stick till the time they boot out the mass murderer!

Such people would be jobless elsewhere but in India they are called liberals.
 

>> On the other hand the other idiot Tridip Suhrud says that Modi was an able administrator from the beginning – he administered the riots very well and later on administered the state!

By contrast, Rajiv administered the riots very efficiently, but was extremely poor in all other areas.

Karan Thappar’s ‘Last Word’ was largely another platform to disseminate secular poppycock. It was a good example of how our intellectuals and social scientists can get away with peddling absolute horseshit as opinion and they never have to bear the burden to back it up with facts. So Christopher Jaffrelot says good administration and great development in Gujarat happened only because Modi was guilty of Gujarat 2002 and he had to cover it up with good performance. On the other hand the other idiot Tridip Suhrud says that Modi was an able administrator from the beginning – he administered the riots very well and later on administered the state! This is like arguing Godhra was not a conspiracy because Banerjee says it was spontaneous combustion and Tehelka says it was child molestation (never mind both the sources actually contradict each other).

Nagaraj,

>> Gujarati Muslims threw up a murderous monster called Jinnah.

So now you are going to generate hate against Gujarati Muslims? Does your perfidy know no limits at all?

Gujarati Muslims threw up a murderous monster called Jinnah,while on the otherhand Gujarati Hindus gave the world a saintly Mahatama Gandhi.Muslims continued to have Jinnah as their role model,resulting in so many riots in post independent Gujarat.This fact alone is responsible for the Gujaratis to move away from the pro-Muslim Congress to BJP hoping for better protection of the Hindu soceity.All these high sounding learned people should look at the Gujarati soceity in an unbiased manner,instead of each one trying to look more secular than the other.The way secularists are keeping the embers of Gujarat burning is no different from stoking voilence on every 6th of December as Babri demolition day.

>> Bin Laden wasn't an elected leader, but it is logical to pass judgements on any society that would have him so chosen.

Nor were Gandhi, MLK or Mandela (when he first went to prison). Nobody doubts their influence.

Bin Laden was not an elected leader (how the hell was he supposed to get elected in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan anyway)? He was and remains a symbol and leader to lot of Muslims around the world, including in India. Else, sickos like Paswan and Lalu wouldn't have been taking his look alike on campaigns. If Tridip's comments about Gujarati society and Modi can be taken seriously, so can Ganesan's about Muslim society and Bin Laden.

Joshipura,

>>  At least Anwaar Mia agrees with the fact that .....

Only illbred morons call me Anwaar Mia.

8D-30:

"  that there are fewer and fewer riots all over India...."  At least Anwaar Mia agrees with the fact that before 2002 there were MORE and MORE riots ALL OVER India.  Here he is comparing these (all over India) riots with 2002 Gujarat riots.

 C. Jaffrelot says that the guilt of 2002 is responsible for Modi to do good administration. 

Then Monsieur C Jaffrelot , then 1984 anti sikh riots and the  1987 Hashimpura riots should be a reason for good admin  for Congress to wipe out their guilt? it has not happened Monsieur . Why ?

You being a Frenchman  with  globalised instincts can you write a piece or mouth some homilies  as to why GW Bush is not found fault ( the most unjust invader in a civilised world) for the million times larger genocide in Iraq.  

Ganesan,

>> And will this dude apply the same logic to muslims? "It is only a society like muslims which throws up a Bin Laden". Will this statement go down his throat?

I suppose by "this dude" you mean Tridip Suhrud, the Gandhian scholar. Bin Laden was not a leader of any community, and "Muslims" are not one homogenous society. But the statement can be shown to be true for some Muslim societies at particular periods in their history. However in the context of what Dasgupta said, "it is the criminalisation of Gujarati society which can only throw up a leader like Narendra Modi," one has to add that having perpetrated what they did in 2002, they now have to stand together to face the rest of the world which is aghast at what they did. This has a dynamic of its own.

These stupid commentators talks as if 2002 riots were the first riots in Gujarat.  It is reported that until 2002 riots, there were some 144 small-medium and some large scale racial riots took place in Gujarat.  All those riots occured under Congress leadership.  So Gujaratis elected right leaders at those times? or at that time leaders made Gujaratis what they were and not vice versa?

I agree with one point that actual killing, looting, burning etc. were done by Dalits, Tribals and other backward class people (Rabaries, Vaghries etc.).  The reason for that is these people and the Muslim communities are competing for the same job market (labourers).  So both sides see each other as competetors and looking for an opprtunity to hurt (eliminate) one another.  No major instigation is required.  And this is age old problem not 2002 problem as these commentators have us believe.

>> "... the capacity for administration extends from managing violence, creating violence, perpetrating it, denying justice, to creating industrial growth. So there is actually no split there. I mean, there is an entire spectrum available— it moves from violence to industrial growth. But two points: One, when we say there have been no riots in Gujarat from 2002, we also have to understand that riots as a form of political mobilisation are giving diminishing returns increasingly, and that is being felt across the country." - Tridip Suhrud

There is no question that the 2002 pogrom required expert administration. It is also true that there are fewer and fewer riots all over India, so pinning the 2002 massacre as a medal on Modi's chest is a sick joke.

>> " In Gujarat this class has smelt blood, for it does not have to do the killings but can plan, finance and coordinate them with impunity. The actual killers are the lowest of the low, mostly tribals and Dalits. The middle class controls the media and education, which have become hate factories in recent times. And they receive spirited support from most non-resident Indians who, at a safe distance from India, can afford to be more nationalist, bloodthirsty, and irresponsible." - Ashis Nandy.

Oh yes! We all know those NRI's!

And Nandy did say what he did about Maharashtrian Brahmins and Kashmiri Muslims too

>> "And will this dude apply the same logic to muslims? "It is only a society like muslims which throws up a Bin Laden". Will this statement go down his throat?"

SUPERRR Response. Hopefully, that bigoted sickular did read your comment.

Suhrud is talking about the electorate which elected such a mass-murderer, not just once but twice. Bin Laden wasn't an elected leader, but it is logical to pass judgements on any society that would have him so chosen. Suhrud's point is not directed at any religious community, but a society. And those choosing Modi or Laden definitely need to examine their pathologies.

[20 lakh people on streets hell bent on rioting and not even 3000 dead. Is there any logic in the numbers?]

@ Ganesan - you clearly misunderstand what occurred in Gujarat 2002 and its purpose. 

"Rioting" implies spontaneity, with an immediate objective to hurt/kill/maim over-riding everything else.  But in out country,communal violence MAY start like that, but it only continues if it has adminsitrative support of some kind, hence pogrom, and if there are other purposes being met. In Gujarat these other puposes were communal polariation for political benefit, a statement of power by the Sangh Parivar and (as is usual with most communal violence) the displacement of people and the theft of their houses, goods and livelihoods. 

Very few people benefit from just killing minorities, but quite a few people might benefit from chasing minorities away and taking their things. (Theft.)  That's the main motivation for communal violence.

Wrt judging Gujarat for repeatedly voting in a party and a CM implicated in communal violence - well, if democracy accurately reflects the will of the people, then the people's will is to be represented by a murderer.  The BJP is not alone in this in India - in fact many MPs from a number of parties are rapists and murderers - just the most florid example.

>> "And will this dude apply the same logic to muslims? "It is only a society like muslims which throws up a Bin Laden". Will this statement go down his throat?"

SUPERRR Response. Hopefully, that bigoted sickular did read your comment.

>> Will this statement go down his throat?

He shall call you a Sanghi, fascist, might compare you to Hitler and then move on. Be certain that your query shall not be answered.

When logic fails these scumbags, which is almost always the case, they always fall back on hate.

 "The second point clearly is that when you say that Gujarati society has been criminalized, we have to say that it is a society like Gujarat which throws up Modi and not vice versa."

What sort of thinking is this? Every society has some one who is saintly and some one else who is a hardened criminal. Are we going to judge societies based on this?

And will this dude apply the same logic to muslims? "It is only a society like muslims which throws up a Bin Laden". Will this statement go down his throat?

 "Gujarat police officers told this writer in 2002 that — and they were citing FIRs and plain surmise — two million people came out on the streets."

What was the number the govt gave regarding the number of people killed? 250 odd hindus and some 750 odd muslims. 20 lakh people came out on street with the express intent of rioting and the number of people barely crosses a thousand. Let us be generous and put the number at 3000. 

20 lakh people on streets hell bent on rioting and not even 3000 dead. Is there any logic in the numbers?

 "The second point clearly is that when you say that Gujarati society has been criminalized, we have to say that it is a society like Gujarat which throws up Modi and not vice versa."

What sort of thinking is this? Every society has some one who is saintly and some one else who is a hardened criminal. Are we going to judge societies based on this?

And will this dude apply the same logic to muslims? "It is only a society like muslims which throws up a Bin Laden". Will this statement go down his throat?

 "Gujarat police officers told this writer in 2002 that — and they were citing FIRs and plain surmise — two million people came out on the streets."

What was the number the govt gave regarding the number of people killed? 250 odd hindus and some 750 odd muslims. 20 lakh people came out on street with the express intent of rioting and the number of people barely crosses a thousand. Let us be generous and put the number at 3000. 

20 lakh people on streets hell bent on rioting and not even 3000 dead. Is there any logic in the numbers?

>> "Bin Laden was not a leader of any community..... " - Anwaar

Try explaining that to those who prayed for himi, from Kashmir to Kerala. 

Try explaing that to the sickular parties of Bihar and UP where Osama ji's lookalikes are a big electoral draw.

 C. Jaffrelot says that the guilt of 2002 is responsible for Modi to do good administration. 

Then Monsieur C Jaffrelot , then 1984 anti sikh riots and the  1987 Hashimpura riots should be a reason for good admin  for Congress to wipe out their guilt? it has not happened Monsieur . Why ?

You being a Frenchman  with  globalised instincts can you write a piece or mouth some homilies  as to why GW Bush is not found fault ( the most unjust invader in a civilised world) for the million times larger genocide in Iraq.  

>> Will this statement go down his throat?

He shall call you a Sanghi, fascist, might compare you to Hitler and then move on. Be certain that your query shall not be answered.

When logic fails these scumbags, which is almost always the case, they always fall back on hate.

>> So now you are going to generate hate against Gujarati Muslims? Does your perfidy know no limits at all?

When Tridip calls Gujarati society (referring to those who voted for Modi, implying Hindus) as criminals for throwing up Modi, you call him a Gandhian scholar. When Nagraj calls out the Gujarati Muslim community for throwing up Jinnah, you accuse him of spreading hate.

>>By contrast, Rajiv administered the riots very efficiently, but was extremely poor in all other areas.

For this stark contrast he was given Bharat Ratna.

>>The second point clearly is that when you say that Gujarati society has been criminalized, we have to say that it is a society like Gujarat which throws up Modi and not vice versa.

To summarize this perverts thinking – We the intellectuals and social scientists of India decide who is a ‘mass murderer’. Thereafter, those unwashed masses (also called the electorate) have to take our word as gospel and vote against the mass murderer. If they do otherwise, we from our high pedestal will condemn the entire people and brand them as criminals! This charge will stick till the time they boot out the mass murderer!

Such people would be jobless elsewhere but in India they are called liberals.
 

Barkha Dutt and Rajdeep interviewed the victims of the coach burning as also the victims of the riots there after. The contrast in the aproach to life after the incidents of the two was noticeable. While the coach-burning victims have moved on and almost forgotten or at least want to forget, the others said they will never forget and don't want to forget. What does this behaviour indicate? 

An act of desperation. These secus (Yes - There still are so many without Padma awards ???) could not touch Modi - legally or politically. Now the hate merchants are out to break Gujarati society by class (Urban middle class vs rest), and caste (dalits and tribals vs rest). Their game plan : If the mud thrown at Modi for 10 years does not stick, let us throw it at Urban middle class Gujaratis. If it does not stick let us try upper caste and OBCs (remember Modi is OBC).

>> "And will this dude apply the same logic to muslims? "It is only a society like muslims which throws up a Bin Laden". Will this statement go down his throat?"

SUPERRR Response. Hopefully, that bigoted sickular did read your comment.

>> On the other hand the other idiot Tridip Suhrud says that Modi was an able administrator from the beginning – he administered the riots very well and later on administered the state!

By contrast, Rajiv administered the riots very efficiently, but was extremely poor in all other areas.

Gujarati Muslims threw up a murderous monster called Jinnah,while on the otherhand Gujarati Hindus gave the world a saintly Mahatama Gandhi.Muslims continued to have Jinnah as their role model,resulting in so many riots in post independent Gujarat.This fact alone is responsible for the Gujaratis to move away from the pro-Muslim Congress to BJP hoping for better protection of the Hindu soceity.All these high sounding learned people should look at the Gujarati soceity in an unbiased manner,instead of each one trying to look more secular than the other.The way secularists are keeping the embers of Gujarat burning is no different from stoking voilence on every 6th of December as Babri demolition day.

>> Bin Laden wasn't an elected leader, but it is logical to pass judgements on any society that would have him so chosen.

Nor were Gandhi, MLK or Mandela (when he first went to prison). Nobody doubts their influence.

Bin Laden was not an elected leader (how the hell was he supposed to get elected in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan anyway)? He was and remains a symbol and leader to lot of Muslims around the world, including in India. Else, sickos like Paswan and Lalu wouldn't have been taking his look alike on campaigns. If Tridip's comments about Gujarati society and Modi can be taken seriously, so can Ganesan's about Muslim society and Bin Laden.

These stupid commentators talks as if 2002 riots were the first riots in Gujarat.  It is reported that until 2002 riots, there were some 144 small-medium and some large scale racial riots took place in Gujarat.  All those riots occured under Congress leadership.  So Gujaratis elected right leaders at those times? or at that time leaders made Gujaratis what they were and not vice versa?

I agree with one point that actual killing, looting, burning etc. were done by Dalits, Tribals and other backward class people (Rabaries, Vaghries etc.).  The reason for that is these people and the Muslim communities are competing for the same job market (labourers).  So both sides see each other as competetors and looking for an opprtunity to hurt (eliminate) one another.  No major instigation is required.  And this is age old problem not 2002 problem as these commentators have us believe.

 Gujarat's spectacular development has underwritten the de-civilising process.

This is calumny. The middle class Gujarati is a happy go lucky outgoing fun loving people. They love to make money , they equally love to spend money. Normally they do not get involved in politics, politics of progrom is far for their mind. 

In every society there would be a lumpen class whose bestial instincts could easily be incited.  These people are the tools of politicians who use them to meet their narrow political end. Gujarat is no exception. One of the incentive for rioting is loot. Compared to Muslims of  the other parts of the country , the Gujarati Muslim has always been better off financially for reasons we need not go in to here. That may be the reason religious riots could be more frequently engineered there.

Of course Modi being " perhaps the finest administrators of riots in the country. So the capacity for administration extends from managing violence, creating violence, perpetrating it, denying justice " , helped in 2002. This administration of riots is not also such a tough job either. One night in New York power went off for eight hours. Not a store in the  down town city escaped looting. Lights came back & civilisation was restored.

Karan Thappar’s ‘Last Word’ was largely another platform to disseminate secular poppycock. It was a good example of how our intellectuals and social scientists can get away with peddling absolute horseshit as opinion and they never have to bear the burden to back it up with facts. So Christopher Jaffrelot says good administration and great development in Gujarat happened only because Modi was guilty of Gujarat 2002 and he had to cover it up with good performance. On the other hand the other idiot Tridip Suhrud says that Modi was an able administrator from the beginning – he administered the riots very well and later on administered the state! This is like arguing Godhra was not a conspiracy because Banerjee says it was spontaneous combustion and Tehelka says it was child molestation (never mind both the sources actually contradict each other).

8D-30:

"  that there are fewer and fewer riots all over India...."  At least Anwaar Mia agrees with the fact that before 2002 there were MORE and MORE riots ALL OVER India.  Here he is comparing these (all over India) riots with 2002 Gujarat riots.

What will this anti Modi industry do if he were to disappear from the scene? Find another scapegoat? I don't remember any commemoration of the 1984 riots. We won't hear from Barkha and the holy 'secular' brigade about their bosom pal Niira Radia.

Duh ! What is a 'Gandhian Scholar' ? Somebody who studies Gandhian philosphy ? Or a scholar following Gandhian way of life ?

 KC Sharma

[While the coach-burning victims have moved on and almost forgotten or at least want to forget, the others said they will never forget and don't want to forget. What does this behaviour indicate? ]

30 people have been found guilty for the coach burning, twenty of them have been sentenced to death, another ten to life imprisonment.  Nothing will bring back the dead, but justice has been done - leaving the victims able to rebuild and move on.

The 'others' - specifically a woman who was raped - have not experienced justice.  In fact that lady had great difficulty even registering an FIR, and while the courts take their time even calling her to depose (justice delayed is justice denied) her rapists walk free.  Do you think that this is just?  How can you compare that with a case where the perpetrators have been severely punished?

@Anwaar,

When you run out of logic, you get angry and make personal attacks. By the way the word "Mia" originally means a person with honour and good social standing, a respectable person. So if someone calls you Anwaar Mia and you call him illbred, that reveals your intellect, how much you may try to project an liberal, secular, intellectual image.

Manish,

"One night in New York power went off for eight hours. Not a store in the down town city escaped looting. Lights came back & civilisation was restored."

That is again, a totally irrelevant hyperbole. By a coincidence, I was right there in downtown Manhattan when the lights went out. Apart from a few stray incidents (judging from police sirens), I don't remember widespread looting of stores. In fact, for quite sometime I was confused why stores had started putting their ice cream tubs on pavement. It reminded me of Chandni Chowk. So, please don't let your hatred for the US devolve into inventing stories. It only makes you sound ignorant and foolish.

What a nonsense! These neo-liberal clowns have nothing better to do except chattering utter nonsense about Gujarat riot. They blamed Mr. Modi for whole carnage, now they are targeting people of Gujarat and want them to feel guilty for post Godhra riot. However, if anyone that should be apologizing and asking for forgiveness is Muslim community of Godhara, they are the one who started this whole chain reaction.
People of Gujarat will never forget burning of Sabarmati and ghastly attack on pilgrims. This incident is etched in our heat, like a stone template, this is Gujarat’s Jallianwala Bagh, only difference is that killing was done by enemy within. We will never forget this no matter how much twist and spin secular media puts on it. Remember, a fool always forget, naïve forget and forgive, but smart may forgive but never forget.
Having said that, people of Gujarat are moving head, both Hindu and Muslim community wants to keep this incident as terrible past, and move on to build their lives. We all want to live prosperous life under the leadership of Mr. Modi or whoever that can bring non-corrupt, efficient and honest governance. Unfortunately, some of these neo-liberals and arm chair annalist, OUTSIDERS can’t sleep at night knowing people of Gujarat are happy, and proud to have Mr. Narendra Modi as their elected leader.
 

All Sickulars tried and tried.  They investigated Gujarat Riots and Mr. Modi by everybody and his brother.  When nobody could find any evidence to implicate Mr. Modi now they have taken a different route.  They say Mr. Modi is a masterful administrator.  He managed these racial riots so well that he did not leave any evidence !!  In a way a perfect murder plot so to speak.  It must hurt them like hell.

>> "And will this dude apply the same logic to muslims? "It is only a society like muslims which throws up a Bin Laden". Will this statement go down his throat?"

SUPERRR Response. Hopefully, that bigoted sickular did read your comment.

Suhrud is talking about the electorate which elected such a mass-murderer, not just once but twice. Bin Laden wasn't an elected leader, but it is logical to pass judgements on any society that would have him so chosen. Suhrud's point is not directed at any religious community, but a society. And those choosing Modi or Laden definitely need to examine their pathologies.

While there is ample scope for blaming Modi for Gujarat in 2002, I am amazed by the reasons offered by these assorted so-called experts on Modi's winning run in Gujarat. Swapan Dasgupta rightly points out that when you blame the whole society for a certain wrong, no matter how genuine that blame may be, then it's no suprise why Modi has been elected time and again. And we are not even talking about his administrative acumen as a factor. If such wonderful logic holds true, then we can blame the whole country for giving Congress an absolute majority after the anti-sikh riots. That, by all standards, was even worse manifestation of callousness.

Justice needs to be done to the victims. Equally, if no evidence is found of Modi's collusion, he needs to be censured only on indifference or failure of administration, which is a big failure itself. Frankly, after the recent episode of manufactured threats to Rushdie by the sundry agencies, I am starting to have doubts on Setalvad and co's case.

How warmly Barkha embraced Bandukwala,which was missing when she met the Hindus.

PNAsery:

It was not the word Mia that bothered the Mia, but the point I raised hurt his feeling.  He, in his own words confessed that after 2002 there have been fewer and fewer racial riots all over India (and same happened in Gujarat so no kudos for Modi), but in so doing he inadvertently admitted that before 2002 there were many many racial riots all over India.  This diluted his venom towards Gujarat and Mr. Modi. That bothered him. And that is why personal attack-a last resort of scoundrels (I open myself for the attack now).

 Two infirmites of these pontifications are ( a ) There has been an attempt to link development with religiously inspired voilence. That is a false premise. ( b ) The interlocuators thoughout seem to subconciously equate Gujarat with Modi. Modi is not Gujarat . Gujratis generally cannot vive themselves with Modi's idea of ashmita. They are sensible enough to take the so called ashmita to be what it is - plain & simple demagoguy.

The riddle here is Modi's successive win in the state elections - an area social scientists should concentrate. Last time Modi campaigned for the BJP outside Gujarat is in Assam where the party drew a blank. In the ongoing elections specially in UP where BJP's stakes are very high , they would not even consider Modi to campagn for BJP.

Pnasery,

I know the original meaning of the word "miya". I respond to the pejorative use now. If you notice who are the persons using it, they are invariably habitual hate mongers.

Joshipura,

>>  At least Anwaar Mia agrees with the fact that .....

Only illbred morons call me Anwaar Mia.

And Nandy did say what he did about Maharashtrian Brahmins and Kashmiri Muslims too

Nagaraj,

>> Gujarati Muslims threw up a murderous monster called Jinnah.

So now you are going to generate hate against Gujarati Muslims? Does your perfidy know no limits at all?

Ganesan,

>> And will this dude apply the same logic to muslims? "It is only a society like muslims which throws up a Bin Laden". Will this statement go down his throat?

I suppose by "this dude" you mean Tridip Suhrud, the Gandhian scholar. Bin Laden was not a leader of any community, and "Muslims" are not one homogenous society. But the statement can be shown to be true for some Muslim societies at particular periods in their history. However in the context of what Dasgupta said, "it is the criminalisation of Gujarati society which can only throw up a leader like Narendra Modi," one has to add that having perpetrated what they did in 2002, they now have to stand together to face the rest of the world which is aghast at what they did. This has a dynamic of its own.

>> "... the capacity for administration extends from managing violence, creating violence, perpetrating it, denying justice, to creating industrial growth. So there is actually no split there. I mean, there is an entire spectrum available— it moves from violence to industrial growth. But two points: One, when we say there have been no riots in Gujarat from 2002, we also have to understand that riots as a form of political mobilisation are giving diminishing returns increasingly, and that is being felt across the country." - Tridip Suhrud

There is no question that the 2002 pogrom required expert administration. It is also true that there are fewer and fewer riots all over India, so pinning the 2002 massacre as a medal on Modi's chest is a sick joke.

>> " In Gujarat this class has smelt blood, for it does not have to do the killings but can plan, finance and coordinate them with impunity. The actual killers are the lowest of the low, mostly tribals and Dalits. The middle class controls the media and education, which have become hate factories in recent times. And they receive spirited support from most non-resident Indians who, at a safe distance from India, can afford to be more nationalist, bloodthirsty, and irresponsible." - Ashis Nandy.

Oh yes! We all know those NRI's!

[20 lakh people on streets hell bent on rioting and not even 3000 dead. Is there any logic in the numbers?]

@ Ganesan - you clearly misunderstand what occurred in Gujarat 2002 and its purpose. 

"Rioting" implies spontaneity, with an immediate objective to hurt/kill/maim over-riding everything else.  But in out country,communal violence MAY start like that, but it only continues if it has adminsitrative support of some kind, hence pogrom, and if there are other purposes being met. In Gujarat these other puposes were communal polariation for political benefit, a statement of power by the Sangh Parivar and (as is usual with most communal violence) the displacement of people and the theft of their houses, goods and livelihoods. 

Very few people benefit from just killing minorities, but quite a few people might benefit from chasing minorities away and taking their things. (Theft.)  That's the main motivation for communal violence.

Wrt judging Gujarat for repeatedly voting in a party and a CM implicated in communal violence - well, if democracy accurately reflects the will of the people, then the people's will is to be represented by a murderer.  The BJP is not alone in this in India - in fact many MPs from a number of parties are rapists and murderers - just the most florid example.

>> "And will this dude apply the same logic to muslims? "It is only a society like muslims which throws up a Bin Laden". Will this statement go down his throat?"

SUPERRR Response. Hopefully, that bigoted sickular did read your comment.

Suhrud is talking about the electorate which elected such a mass-murderer, not just once but twice. Bin Laden wasn't an elected leader, but it is logical to pass judgements on any society that would have him so chosen. Suhrud's point is not directed at any religious community, but a society. And those choosing Modi or Laden definitely need to examine their pathologies.

Irreverent,

>>>> "Bin Laden was not a leader of any community..... "
>> Try explaining that to those who prayed for him.
 

There are idiots in all communities. Just look at yourself!

Nagaraj,

>> Gujarati Muslims threw up a murderous monster called Jinnah.

So now you are going to generate hate against Gujarati Muslims? Does your perfidy know no limits at all?

Ganesan,

>> And will this dude apply the same logic to muslims? "It is only a society like muslims which throws up a Bin Laden". Will this statement go down his throat?

I suppose by "this dude" you mean Tridip Suhrud, the Gandhian scholar. Bin Laden was not a leader of any community, and "Muslims" are not one homogenous society. But the statement can be shown to be true for some Muslim societies at particular periods in their history. However in the context of what Dasgupta said, "it is the criminalisation of Gujarati society which can only throw up a leader like Narendra Modi," one has to add that having perpetrated what they did in 2002, they now have to stand together to face the rest of the world which is aghast at what they did. This has a dynamic of its own.

>> "... the capacity for administration extends from managing violence, creating violence, perpetrating it, denying justice, to creating industrial growth. So there is actually no split there. I mean, there is an entire spectrum available— it moves from violence to industrial growth. But two points: One, when we say there have been no riots in Gujarat from 2002, we also have to understand that riots as a form of political mobilisation are giving diminishing returns increasingly, and that is being felt across the country." - Tridip Suhrud

There is no question that the 2002 pogrom required expert administration. It is also true that there are fewer and fewer riots all over India, so pinning the 2002 massacre as a medal on Modi's chest is a sick joke.

>> " In Gujarat this class has smelt blood, for it does not have to do the killings but can plan, finance and coordinate them with impunity. The actual killers are the lowest of the low, mostly tribals and Dalits. The middle class controls the media and education, which have become hate factories in recent times. And they receive spirited support from most non-resident Indians who, at a safe distance from India, can afford to be more nationalist, bloodthirsty, and irresponsible." - Ashis Nandy.

Oh yes! We all know those NRI's!

Joshipura,

>>  At least Anwaar Mia agrees with the fact that .....

Only illbred morons call me Anwaar Mia.

[20 lakh people on streets hell bent on rioting and not even 3000 dead. Is there any logic in the numbers?]

@ Ganesan - you clearly misunderstand what occurred in Gujarat 2002 and its purpose. 

"Rioting" implies spontaneity, with an immediate objective to hurt/kill/maim over-riding everything else.  But in out country,communal violence MAY start like that, but it only continues if it has adminsitrative support of some kind, hence pogrom, and if there are other purposes being met. In Gujarat these other puposes were communal polariation for political benefit, a statement of power by the Sangh Parivar and (as is usual with most communal violence) the displacement of people and the theft of their houses, goods and livelihoods. 

Very few people benefit from just killing minorities, but quite a few people might benefit from chasing minorities away and taking their things. (Theft.)  That's the main motivation for communal violence.

Wrt judging Gujarat for repeatedly voting in a party and a CM implicated in communal violence - well, if democracy accurately reflects the will of the people, then the people's will is to be represented by a murderer.  The BJP is not alone in this in India - in fact many MPs from a number of parties are rapists and murderers - just the most florid example.

>> It was not the word Mia that bothered the Mia.

More rubbish from the ill-bred moron. Read the article, understand what  Tridip Suhrud says.

And Nandy did say what he did about Maharashtrian Brahmins and Kashmiri Muslims too

 "Gujarat police officers told this writer in 2002 that — and they were citing FIRs and plain surmise — two million people came out on the streets."

What was the number the govt gave regarding the number of people killed? 250 odd hindus and some 750 odd muslims. 20 lakh people came out on street with the express intent of rioting and the number of people barely crosses a thousand. Let us be generous and put the number at 3000. 

20 lakh people on streets hell bent on rioting and not even 3000 dead. Is there any logic in the numbers?

 If he's exonerated I agree, we do need to move on.  But he hasn't been tried yet.

 Amit - Gujarat keeps electing Modi because they don't care about the charges against him.  Either they don't believe them, or they don't think that a failure to maintain Raj Dharma when it comes to Muslim victims of violence is such a big deal. I don't think that what the ELM says has any influence on how Gujarat votes.

Pnasery,

I know the original meaning of the word "miya". I respond to the pejorative use now. If you notice who are the persons using it, they are invariably habitual hate mongers.

 KC Sharma

[While the coach-burning victims have moved on and almost forgotten or at least want to forget, the others said they will never forget and don't want to forget. What does this behaviour indicate? ]

30 people have been found guilty for the coach burning, twenty of them have been sentenced to death, another ten to life imprisonment.  Nothing will bring back the dead, but justice has been done - leaving the victims able to rebuild and move on.

The 'others' - specifically a woman who was raped - have not experienced justice.  In fact that lady had great difficulty even registering an FIR, and while the courts take their time even calling her to depose (justice delayed is justice denied) her rapists walk free.  Do you think that this is just?  How can you compare that with a case where the perpetrators have been severely punished?

 "The second point clearly is that when you say that Gujarati society has been criminalized, we have to say that it is a society like Gujarat which throws up Modi and not vice versa."

What sort of thinking is this? Every society has some one who is saintly and some one else who is a hardened criminal. Are we going to judge societies based on this?

And will this dude apply the same logic to muslims? "It is only a society like muslims which throws up a Bin Laden". Will this statement go down his throat?

Manish,

"One night in New York power went off for eight hours. Not a store in the down town city escaped looting. Lights came back & civilisation was restored."

That is again, a totally irrelevant hyperbole. By a coincidence, I was right there in downtown Manhattan when the lights went out. Apart from a few stray incidents (judging from police sirens), I don't remember widespread looting of stores. In fact, for quite sometime I was confused why stores had started putting their ice cream tubs on pavement. It reminded me of Chandni Chowk. So, please don't let your hatred for the US devolve into inventing stories. It only makes you sound ignorant and foolish.

What a nonsense! These neo-liberal clowns have nothing better to do except chattering utter nonsense about Gujarat riot. They blamed Mr. Modi for whole carnage, now they are targeting people of Gujarat and want them to feel guilty for post Godhra riot. However, if anyone that should be apologizing and asking for forgiveness is Muslim community of Godhara, they are the one who started this whole chain reaction.
People of Gujarat will never forget burning of Sabarmati and ghastly attack on pilgrims. This incident is etched in our heat, like a stone template, this is Gujarat’s Jallianwala Bagh, only difference is that killing was done by enemy within. We will never forget this no matter how much twist and spin secular media puts on it. Remember, a fool always forget, naïve forget and forgive, but smart may forgive but never forget.
Having said that, people of Gujarat are moving head, both Hindu and Muslim community wants to keep this incident as terrible past, and move on to build their lives. We all want to live prosperous life under the leadership of Mr. Modi or whoever that can bring non-corrupt, efficient and honest governance. Unfortunately, some of these neo-liberals and arm chair annalist, OUTSIDERS can’t sleep at night knowing people of Gujarat are happy, and proud to have Mr. Narendra Modi as their elected leader.
 

 Two infirmites of these pontifications are ( a ) There has been an attempt to link development with religiously inspired voilence. That is a false premise. ( b ) The interlocuators thoughout seem to subconciously equate Gujarat with Modi. Modi is not Gujarat . Gujratis generally cannot vive themselves with Modi's idea of ashmita. They are sensible enough to take the so called ashmita to be what it is - plain & simple demagoguy.

The riddle here is Modi's successive win in the state elections - an area social scientists should concentrate. Last time Modi campaigned for the BJP outside Gujarat is in Assam where the party drew a blank. In the ongoing elections specially in UP where BJP's stakes are very high , they would not even consider Modi to campagn for BJP.

Gujarati Muslims threw up a murderous monster called Jinnah,while on the otherhand Gujarati Hindus gave the world a saintly Mahatama Gandhi.Muslims continued to have Jinnah as their role model,resulting in so many riots in post independent Gujarat.This fact alone is responsible for the Gujaratis to move away from the pro-Muslim Congress to BJP hoping for better protection of the Hindu soceity.All these high sounding learned people should look at the Gujarati soceity in an unbiased manner,instead of each one trying to look more secular than the other.The way secularists are keeping the embers of Gujarat burning is no different from stoking voilence on every 6th of December as Babri demolition day.

These stupid commentators talks as if 2002 riots were the first riots in Gujarat.  It is reported that until 2002 riots, there were some 144 small-medium and some large scale racial riots took place in Gujarat.  All those riots occured under Congress leadership.  So Gujaratis elected right leaders at those times? or at that time leaders made Gujaratis what they were and not vice versa?

I agree with one point that actual killing, looting, burning etc. were done by Dalits, Tribals and other backward class people (Rabaries, Vaghries etc.).  The reason for that is these people and the Muslim communities are competing for the same job market (labourers).  So both sides see each other as competetors and looking for an opprtunity to hurt (eliminate) one another.  No major instigation is required.  And this is age old problem not 2002 problem as these commentators have us believe.

@Anwaar,

When you run out of logic, you get angry and make personal attacks. By the way the word "Mia" originally means a person with honour and good social standing, a respectable person. So if someone calls you Anwaar Mia and you call him illbred, that reveals your intellect, how much you may try to project an liberal, secular, intellectual image.

 Gujarat's spectacular development has underwritten the de-civilising process.

This is calumny. The middle class Gujarati is a happy go lucky outgoing fun loving people. They love to make money , they equally love to spend money. Normally they do not get involved in politics, politics of progrom is far for their mind. 

In every society there would be a lumpen class whose bestial instincts could easily be incited.  These people are the tools of politicians who use them to meet their narrow political end. Gujarat is no exception. One of the incentive for rioting is loot. Compared to Muslims of  the other parts of the country , the Gujarati Muslim has always been better off financially for reasons we need not go in to here. That may be the reason religious riots could be more frequently engineered there.

Of course Modi being " perhaps the finest administrators of riots in the country. So the capacity for administration extends from managing violence, creating violence, perpetrating it, denying justice " , helped in 2002. This administration of riots is not also such a tough job either. One night in New York power went off for eight hours. Not a store in the  down town city escaped looting. Lights came back & civilisation was restored.

>>The second point clearly is that when you say that Gujarati society has been criminalized, we have to say that it is a society like Gujarat which throws up Modi and not vice versa.

To summarize this perverts thinking – We the intellectuals and social scientists of India decide who is a ‘mass murderer’. Thereafter, those unwashed masses (also called the electorate) have to take our word as gospel and vote against the mass murderer. If they do otherwise, we from our high pedestal will condemn the entire people and brand them as criminals! This charge will stick till the time they boot out the mass murderer!

Such people would be jobless elsewhere but in India they are called liberals.
 

 C. Jaffrelot says that the guilt of 2002 is responsible for Modi to do good administration. 

Then Monsieur C Jaffrelot , then 1984 anti sikh riots and the  1987 Hashimpura riots should be a reason for good admin  for Congress to wipe out their guilt? it has not happened Monsieur . Why ?

You being a Frenchman  with  globalised instincts can you write a piece or mouth some homilies  as to why GW Bush is not found fault ( the most unjust invader in a civilised world) for the million times larger genocide in Iraq.  

>> Will this statement go down his throat?

He shall call you a Sanghi, fascist, might compare you to Hitler and then move on. Be certain that your query shall not be answered.

When logic fails these scumbags, which is almost always the case, they always fall back on hate.