DC >> Thank you Omar Ali for a well thought out blog post.I also believe that better business relations between the two countries and some more liberalization on travel restrictions could be mutually beneficial .

I disagree with a large number of people and the writer (Omar Ali) who keep on touting the benefits of trade btw India and Pakistan.

The plain truth is , the virtues of trade btw India and Pak are highly overrated. Let us see some hard facts. India is one of the 10 biggest importing nations (by value) in world. What are our big ticket import items ? Energy Fuels (Crude Oil, LNG, Coal), Gold /Precious metals/gems and Electronic Goods of all kinds. 

How much of all these is produced by Pakistan ? Answer - ZERO

And same with our exports - our big exports - be it gems and jewellery, textiles or IT services are all of no use to Pak, in fact Pak is a competitor in first two.

The worthless anti people, anti India UPA Govt talks of exporting electricity to Pak. In South India, we have people suffering from 8-10 hour power cuts. So a govt elected by people of India is working for interests of a foreign nation. What way is Congress different from British?

I am not a war monger here, trying to say India and Pak should be at each other's throats. India and Pak really have nothing to fight about and Kashmir problem should be settled by making LOC as the border. 

But otherwise, India and pakistan are like heart patients and cancer patients. A heart patient cannot be treated by an oncologist and a cancer patient cannot be treated by a cardialogist.

To explain further, India's problem is not social but economic - a huge ancient nation rampantly impoverished with non existent infrastructure (physical and social) thanks of decades of nehruvian socialist cum lefitst cum feudal , mostly congress party driven misgovernance that put crony capitalism ahead of real free enterprise.

Pakistan's problem is entirely social. It is a extremist theocratic state that should not be allowed to be so. The one and only solution for Pakistan is not destruction of the country but defanging the country by removing theocracy and making it a foolproof secular republic like Turkey. And for that to happen, we need to wait for a Kemal Attaturk like leader to change the country and fight the demons within.

 YHWH >> India should offer to take in the Hindus and Sikhs (and Christians) of Pakistan.

An Idea worth pursuing. And what do we give in return? We can offer those Kashmiri Hardliners, and stone pelting jehadis and trigger happy terrorists a free one way ticket to the promised land where they can enjoy their hardline extremist version of religion in every sense. 

And it also means that we do away with the crap called Article 370. A lot of poor muslims live in overpopulated and impoverished UP and Bengal, two states ruled for decades by socialist and secular Congress/Left and their proxies. How about settling some of them in the valley and making the place "Switzerland of east" in every sense. This should infact solve many problems in one go and at same time will not disturb the demographics of the state of J&K.

 RV Subrahmanian >> I was alluding to the fact that Pakistan could not differentiate itself from India on most counts - historically, culturally, geographically or ethnically.

It is amazing to see some folks here use Outlook forums to expose their complete ignorance of history, geography, culture and heritage here.

Pakistan and India have NOTHING, NOTHING IN COMMON Except that we had lots of rulers in past in common. Yes, Akbar, Aurangazeeb (Mughals) and British ruled both India and Pakistan but that does not make India and Pakistan same.

It is like telling that British ruled both New Zealand and Kenya in 19th and 20th centuries, so both New Zealand and Kenya have common culture, heritage, geography, history etc.

www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers51/paper5016.html

Dear friends

I am not talking off my head .There are serious indications that Govt is moving speedily in the direction to hand over on platter to Pakistan and China the Saichin .

Not only the news about likely surrender of Saichin have been revealed by MJ AKBAR's paper but also the Defence Experts from both sides of LOC are already engaged in serious ,animated and heated discussions of this Saichin surrender move by MMS .

Since Akbar does not reveals the name of the writer surely this gentleman is extremely loyal Indian is either from Army or some senior serving Officer in some Ministry.

Here is the link from Mr Subash Kapila a renowned writer and Defence anaylist :

www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers51/paper5016.html

" INDIA: GOVERNMENT SET TO REPEAT STRATEGIC BLUNDER OF AKSAI CHIN IN SIACHEN?

The strange thing about the Siachen debate, currently underway, is that the Indian Army has not requested or advised that it cannot continue with the commitments of Siachen Sector defence. The debate emerged in the media, it seems with inspired inputs from the establishment, that the defence of Siachen is a costly affair and hence needs demilitarization. That this inspired reporting has linkages with the Prime Minister's visit to Pakistan cannot be denied; the strategic costs are immaterial.
Pakistan Army Chief General Kayani is reputed to be a taciturn and reticent on military matters. Not known for peaceful intentions towards India his offer that both Pakistan and India should hold discussions on demilitarisation of Siachen was intriguing in terms of timing.
In 2012 it seems that India is once again under pressure, this time because of Pakistan Army’s own compulsions on Afghanistan leading to 2014. The Pakistan Army would like to secure its Eastern Frontiers with India so that it can once again resort to military adventurism in Afghanistan in wake of US military exit from Afghanistan and install a regime in Kabul of its choice.

Another angle that comes up for dreadful analysis is that hopefully the Pakistan Army Chief’s unprecedented peaceful assertions are not the result of India’s back-channel diplomacy that if the Pak Army Chief could make such an assertion it would be easy for the Indian establishment to sell the idea of Siachen negotiations to the Indian public and then soften the opposition to the visit of the Indian Prime Minister to Pakistan'

With one stroke China and Pakistan will be on the tri-junction of India-Pak -China when we vacate Saichin . Till now it is only Bi- Junction as China can't reach .So we will now have China on our Eastern Borders.Pak-China jointly on our Kashmir Borders and Pak-Talibans on our Western Borders .

But why Manmohan Singh is vedeing very vital and startegic Territories of India ??

Can Manmohan Singh over ride the Parliament of India which has declared it an Integral Part of India under a Resolution passed by the then Sarkar of Congress in which Manmohan Singh was the Finance Minister ??

"" Saltoro Ridge and Siachen Sector are an integral part of the Indian State of Jammu & Kashmir and are non- negotiable in terms of the “Unanimous” and forceful “Special Resolution of Parliament 1994” which no Indian Government of any political dispensation can ignore.""

Manmohan Singh and the Congress will be guilty of contempt of Parliament and betrayl of the Nation ??

Thanks Ghai for the link.

How will Maunmoron explain the jugglery behind this. When he frittered away some land to BD last year, we were told that the resolution benefits people on both side of the borders for governance and citizen rights.

How will he explain Siachen, where military presence in important to monitor incursions. And, what will we derive from a lousy MFN status in return? If he checked with Omar or Gehlot, they would tell him that "unofficial" movement of men and trade has been happening across the border sinces years. It's not for nothing that they want Pakistan currency legitimized in Kashmir.

Army has put its views very strongly that no withdrawl from Saichin.

I feel even the idea that if India and Pakistan put on paper the present positions in Saichin and declare it LOC this idea is totally mischievious.

Kargil Borders were inked,drawn on Paper and maps,widely circulated world over .Still Pak did not loose a wink and Mush moved in his boys.

Can you trust the Pakis promises ??

And what Pakistan has done on trust building measures an inch that India agrees for withdrawal ?? They have not punished a single culprit of 26/11 right from Hafiz to the Army person handling Mobile calls of ISI trained killers in Mumbai .

Pakistan wants India off its back when it along with Talibans concentrate on Afganistan .Once the strategic depth is achieved and Talibans are installed in Kabul then Pak will move towards East.And naturally if India is hoodwinked into surrender in next round of talks without firing a bullet so much the better.

Pakistan knows that Manmohan has weakness to fall for visions of personal grandeur as it happened at Sherm-el -Sheikh .So Pakistan now is again using the same route.
No wonder Kayani had blessed Zardari's trip to India !
Meanwhile China will be fairly advanced towards building its Logistic infrastructures like roads,rail,gas pipe lines etc.

Meanwhile Chinese are strengthening their infrastructures like our North East Borders on Kashmir range.

Once Kabul falls that will be the time when joint grand strategy of Pakistan -China " Dis- member India' will roll out .

At that time West and USA will be thousands of Miles away already defeated in Afganistan and economically ruined.

If the news item in MJ Akbar's Paper is correct which undoubtedly will be true then India is heading into big big trouble in future .We are surely heading to loose the greatest and biggest startegic advantage over Pakistan on ground.

If Manmohan Singh is intending to vacate Sachin then it is the duty of every loyal Indian to stop Manmohan Singh and his Sarkar.

Personal glory of MMS as the man of peace can't be at cost of the Nation ,its security and safety of the Country and its Countrymen.

It will be greatest blunder for us and greatest betrayal of India.

'' PM picks Army chief who will accept Siachen pact

Bikram Singh will help the Prime Minister reverse India’s position on Siachen to ensure that Dr Singh can leave his ‘peace mark’ on Indo-Pak relations.

Siachen, the conflicted area between India and Pakistan.AFP
rime Minister Manmohan Singh has put in place the full set of officials who will to support his desire to settle the Siachen dispute with Pakistan in a "Big Bang" visit across the border in a few months. The other dispute on the brink of resolution is Sir Creek. While the two nations have found a solution to Sir Creek, Siachen remains a problem because Indian Army chiefs starting from General A.S. Vaidya and continuing to General V.K. Singh have refused to support what they perceive will be a major concession to Pakistan, as it is India which will have to withdraw.'

www.sunday-guardian.com/news/pm-picks-army-chief-who-will-accept-siachen-pact

Pray don't snatch defeat from the Jaws of Victory !!

Pakistan needs to free the Glacier which is source of water of Sindh River.

This betrayal will be far far worst than Nehru's NAM and Himalayan blunder in 1962 or Indira's Shimla Pact .
Nehru was naive in hs support of the Arabs and antagonized West for which the Nation paid very big cost .Similarly Nehru's faith in Pansheel with Chinese ended in betrayal,humiliation and defeat with added loss of complete face .Indira on the other hand was hoodwinked by Zulfi .

But Manmohan is walking into an irreversible position knowingly with eyes widw open that the withdrawal from Saichin will end in very serious Military disaster for India.
 

THAT TOO JUST FOR HIS PERSONAL GLORY AS MAN OF PEACE ???
 

Very interesting thoughts on this subject.

I think India need to be  neutral. We can open trade, but should not relax visa restriction. Let harliners and "liberals" of Pakistan sort out their internal matters. I don't think India will be affected that much as claimed by author. Even if hardliner come to power (worst  case scenario Hafiz Saeed being president) they have to behave with care and soften their stand, and in this process they may be exposed. I don't think they are mad enough to do a harakiri. They may not care about the lives of low level taliban recruits but they care for their own life. Pretty evident from the fact that Bin Laden chose to stay in a comfortable home with medical care rather than die fighting the coalition forces in Afghanistan.

 India and  its innocent citizen Indians must be saved from Pakistani Jihadi's and Pakistan Militiary with whom we had a PARTITION with the worst Genocide in religious rioting and 4 wars and Kashmiri Pundits living as refugees in J&K and the tens of thousands killed in Kashmir and Punjab and tens of thousands killed in terrorist attacks,most recently 26/11 Bombay and Delhi terrorist attack 13/july/2011.

Air Chief Marshal N A K BROWNE Chief Of The Air Staff, INDIAN AIR FORCE has said that year 2013 -2014 will be challenging period for India .
Hafiz Sayeed has said that let us take Kabul first that is by end 2012 .There after we will concentrate on India. LeT whose Head is Hafiz is the Terror arm of Pakistani Army .

So the whole peace talk of Kayani and host of other Paki writers and thier extended PRO s is purely an exercise to hoodwink India and put us into deep slumber .If we listen to these Candle Brigade then when the D- Day comes we will be caught with pants down .

This happend in the past right from 1947 with infiltration of Kabayalies in Kashmir,in 1965 Raan of Kutch and thereafter same year 1965 sending in Pak Army Infiltrators in Kashmir, Parliament attack,26/11 etc all happened when India was time and again assured of Bhaichara ,Dostana,talk of both Countries being offsprings of same culture and History etc.by the Pakistanies .

Mr Ghai, could you give your comments here?'

Ray sahib
I will submit soon.

 God makes them and they find each other, mashallah.

In my previous post 47/D-24 I missed Kashmir as a state heavily affected by the creation of Pakistan.  But in my view it was India's foreign policy at the time as driven singularly by Nehru at fault for the situation there. There is no point of blaming Pakistan in this matter. Of course Pakistan has interfered in Kashmir to bolster its Islamic agenda.

I am in this context totally puzzled when I read the views of "sane"Pakistanis such as Ayaz Amir, Ahmed Rashid, Tariq Ali and others. They are all intrinsically convinced that Kashmir must belong to Pakistan since it is a Muslim majority population. Even if I were to go along with them,  the reality is Muslims are in majority only in the valley.  There is Jammu, Ladakh and other areas not to mention that part of Kahmir occupied by Pakistan. And in the Muzaffarbad district of POK according to records in Delhi, Sikhs and Hindus were in majority in 1947.

But the sane Pakistanis would not budge. They turn a blind eye to the fact that the Beluchis although Muslims wanted to be a part of India at the time of partition.  There is no point of blaming the Pakistan's Army here.  It is a myth that the majority of Muslims during the British Raj wanted to create Pakistan as a "homeland for Muslims". The raison détre of the Pakistani State is to wrest control of Kashmir out of the Indian hand. I doubt whether that is ever going to happen. There will be always simmering problem in Kashmir and the Indian State will have to live with her rogue neighbour. The Pakistani State will dissolve if the Kashmir issue disappears.

Although I have not absorbed all that Ghai has noted (52/D-75), I do agree with his main thrust.  Pakistan is getting too big for its boots. The breaching of the Durand line is going to be a disaster for Pakistan.  Playing the Islam card cynically with the Afghans cannot bring dividends. Afgans are a fiercely independent people throughout history.

That outcome may sound very desirable, but it will be extremely violent and India will not escape major ill-effects of that violence. '

Oomar Ali sahib

Let us expand the argument you enunciated above :

In 2014 once West leaves Af-Pak War Zone the vacuum will be filled by Pak ISI and Taliban in Pak-Afghanistan .Pakistan will finally get its much coveted Land Depth .But unfortunately it will be both ways for the Pakis.

If Durand line is obliterated for Pakistan so that it can reach Iran Borders then Durnd will also be obliterated for Talibans to run riot in Pak.If Pakistan can reach the Borders of Iran then Talibans will also reach the Borders of India and our LOC in Kashmir.

Thus the much venerated and extolled Heroes of Islam called Mujhadins' long cherished dream to liberate the Muslim Kashmir from the kafir India and put it under Sharia .They along with various Tanzeems and Lashkars,Madrasas etc have further long  nursed the dream to Islamise the kafir India and establish the Nizam-e- Mustafa like it existed in times of Abdul Mujjaffar Moiyudin Mohamad Aurangzeb Alamgir .A terrifying thought but much cherished by the True believers of Pak .ISI and various Tanzeems and Lashkars have done lot of advance ground work in India in training some and establishing Advance Logistic Cells .With our confused Vote Hungry Politicians and perplexed Clergy the new breed of future Mujahids feel the task simply is achievable.

But I must state with complete clarity of mind and conviction that Indian Muslims have seen through the games of the Pakis as in case of 1965 and 1971 .Whatever be our internal squabbles the Muslims in India are no less Patriot than any one of us.

So OOMAR ALI SAHIB is right that if the Pakistan falls in the lap of the Hardliner Islamists then India will also very badly suffer.

Mr Oomar is rather very modest that he avoided the exact words that India too will have a serious destructive War of Cultures at its hands with Nukes in the hands of both combatants.

So his valuable suggestion is help Pakistan in its fight against the Islamists .

Honestly how we do that and none is explaining the Action Plan ? How we go ahead?

My feeling is India will be sucked into War with the hordes of the Islamists marching from the West as I have been saying sinc elong here.

Are we are condemned by the History to repeat what we had gone through since times of Muhamd bin Qasim,Subukatagin ,Mahmud Gazni onwards ??

I see no way India can avoid the coming hordes of the Marauders from the oldest routes though now moderanised and asphalted to achieve more speed for the Invasion of our Country .

But yes we have till then some more time to hear the sermons of Teesta and remain frozen in 2002 Gujarat . So let us use it gainfully.Never mind the ultimate approach of the fast approaching dooms day .

So what are the latest tantrums of Teesta didi ?

@ MK Saini - of course more trade is good for India.  Because the more we sell, the better we do.  WIth a distorted market, with a totally free market, makes no difference.  A sale is a sale.  And perhaps the price of tuvar dal will go down in India as a consequence too, which will be a good thing for the poor. (Also onions.)

Ghai Bhai - you made an ambit claim.  I proposed a measure to see if it was justifiable.  ??

Regards

[The only states affected by the partition were Punjab and Bengal.]

They were the only states that were divided, but many many states were deeply affected by communal violence and refugees both leaving and arriving from the other side.  You could say that North India still has not really recovered its equilibrium.

The author intentions may be good but even if india were to help pakistan, things may not turn out  the way he imagnied.   He is totally excluding the other possibilites of india becoming like pakistan.  if india liberalises trade with pak and issue visas to pakis, a lot of hateful idealogies will  come to india.  India has so many commnuities and little bit brainwashing can cause big problem there.. Given india's law and order establishment, it wont be long before india becomes pak.

If pak  has to become a worthy nation, its people will have to fight their own battles and defeat the jihandis/army.. So far from what I see, zardari/gilani are doing good by standing up to Army and Jihadi and overactive court acting in concert with Army.

May the people of Pakistan live in peace and prosperity. May all of them have access to food, clothing, shelter, education and medicine. May they strengthen their culture, their arts, their science and their achievements. May they create a great nation.

The best thing about being an Indian is that self-esteem comes easy.

Self esteem equals self respect plus self confidence.

I am completely at a loss to make head or tail of Omar Ali's presentation. I will illustrate this with a few extracts from it.

1. "Pakistan is in the throes of an existential crisis."-

Definitely not by any measure.  All the internal turmoil undergoing for a long time within Pakistan is not going to break it up. It will survive as a rogue state out to destroy "Hindu India". As proclaimed by Pakistani leaders time and again, Kashmir is the jugular vein of Pakistan. A few months ago even Gilani repeated this.

Pakistan is a nuclear power not to be underestimated, and it has declared that its nuclear arsenal is India specific.  All its missile technology under development is meant for delivery against the Indian state.

It reminds me of a profoundly great observation made by Manekshaw that India must be ever vigilant on Pakistan ! There is never going to be bonhomie between India and Pakistan at a fundamental level in contrast to India and Bangladesh in future, whatever some of Indian politicians may state. This part of Indian foreign policy is going to be determined by the Indian military. According to my information they have already rebuffed recently their political masters in Delhi to give up their forward miliatry posts in "Ïndira Col" in far away Siachin adjacent to Shakgsam Valley (part of Maharajah's Kashmir) gifted to China by Pakistan in 1953. The Delhiwallhas wanted to make a good gesture to Islamabad.

2. "Pakistan has always been in the throes of an existential crisis." -

I wonder which Pakistan Omar Ali is referring to here. The partition of British India happened only when the Bengali Muslims joined hands with Jinnah and Punjabi muslims. Otherwise the Muslim League did not have the numbers. And in that original Pakistan, the East Pakistanis were in substantial majority who were however considered not muslim enough by the West Pakistanis - they were regarded as Hindu converts. Thus precipitated the 1971 crisis between the East and West Pakistan.

Thus the original Pakistan fragmented into the present Pakistan and Bangladesh. In my view Bangladesh is the original Pakistan since they were in majority and should be regarded as the real inheritor of Pakistan created in 1947.

3. "Pakistan’s interminable existential crisis is, ... ,... Pakistanis have little choice in this matter; and it may be that neither do Indians."-

Didn't the Pakistanis themselves approved by 98% votes to turn Pakistan into an Islamic Republic under Gen Zia ?  It is no point of blaming the Generals for all the misery - it seems the army generals are a convenient whipping boy whenever things go wrong.

4. "The partition of British India was different things to different people, but we can all agree on some things: it was a confused mess, it was accompanied by remarkable violence and viciousness,  and it has led to endless trouble."
 

The only states affected by the partition were Punjab and Bengal. The Hindu Sindhis lost their land of birth due to Ghandi's policy. Other states in British India were not affected.

Mr Ghai, could you give your comments here?

 I agree with Zafar that we are fortunate, so far, in that the inmates don't run the asylum! As for the original article, I somewhat disagree with the author. It is true a stable Pakistan is in our interest-- but only a stable Pakistan that does not see it's future as a negation of the concept of India. In 1965 Pakistan was both stable and relatively prosperous and yet Ayub Khan indulged in pointless military adventurism that resulted in full blown war. Before 1965 India and Pakistan had almost open borders-- my own family stayed in East Pakistan till 1964 and my father studied in Calcutta and went home to Dinajpur, now in Bangladesh, every weekend-- and there was normal trade and people to people interaction. I don't know what it was like in the western border, but certainly in the east the conditions were favourable. Back then there was no Jihadi industry in Pakistan, nor a generation brought up with an ideology of religious violence. The officer corps in Pakistan was still formed of rather westernized, and certainly not religiously motivated, officers. Yet we had war that we could not afford to lose.

In contrast, the conditions in Pakistan right now are terrifying. With luminaries like Hafiz Saeed strutting about, terrorist training camps, the Jihadi ideology and an army whose junior officers are thoroughly Islamised, what is the guarantee that overtures from India towards normalization would not be met with a Kargil or 1965? And if we are to stay vigilant why not make Pakistan pay for it as well? From a cold strategic viewpoint, it is certainly better from an Indian perspective if Pakistan is internally weak and focussed to its west. We have a huge advantage over Pakistan right now, and we can simply bankrupt Pakistan if they wish to stay on with the arms race. In any case India is not going to have a peace dividend; China in the east will ensure we will simply spend less on tanks and more on a blue water navy, but we will have to spend on defense anyway. 

The point of it is that Pakistan has to take the lead in normalizing relations. They have to stop their India-centric obsession. They have to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure and they will have to finally let go of their Kashmir obsession. India has nothing to lose from normalizing trade, but what do we have to gain? Pakistan can not negotiate with a gun held to its head. 

Roy

Thank you Omar Ali for a well thought out blog post.I also believe that better business relations between the two countries and some more liberalization on travel restrictions could be mutually beneficial .

However I am  skeptical if those measures can really prevent religious zealots from exerting  more pressure on Pakistan. Isn't it also too naive to expect that the generals will stop backing the jehadis only for the sake of profiting from better trade relations with India ? Why should the men in uniform give up the rich economic dividend they have been enjoying in Pakistan for six decades by playing the "security threat from India" card? More importantly, is it now possible to put the Genie back into the bottle even if the generals choose to do so?

In fact I have a serious doubt if one can use a rational framework to explain the contradictions of the Pakistani establishment. For a short term gain in the power play between the military and the political class neither act tough on the same militants who are destabilizing the  country killing more Pakistanis than ever before. The importance of having these so called strategic assets is placed ahead of Pakistan's international reputation and they believe that the world can be convinced with their lies and denial. General Mullen was not the only outsider who thought Pakistan's action related to the terrorists defies any logic.

Let us not forget Musharraf's misadventure in Kargil happened around the time Bajpayee was taking serious peace initiatives with Pakistan's civilian government.

Ghai,

>>  some valuable comments from you on this subject.

I have already posted them, but you would not find them valuable.

@Charan dewry

India must reduce defence expenditure and concentrat on improving living standards of poor Indians.
 

Is there really a peace dividend, like what European countries got out of the end of the cold war?  India spends around 2.5% of GDP on defence. That is what European countries spend today (it used to be 4-5% during the Cold War).  This is considered to be a peacetime spending ratio.  

Prosperity (or lack of it) has really little to do with Pakistan. Did Mayawati ever concern hersefl with Pakistan?

 AFPAK can be saved only by spliting AFPAK into Paktunistan,(Paktun majority areas of AFPK) Hazarastan (the SHIA Hazra area), Afghanisatn (the Tajik Majority area)Baluchistan, Sindh and Pakistan (only East Punjab).  India must reduce defence expenditure and concentrat on improving living standards of poor Indians. 

Remeber, Indians died fighting alongside UK and US against the Germans & Japanese in WWI &WWII. But presently UK & USA are more friendly to the Japanese & Germans - reason the economic stregth of these countries. The era of military power as indicator of national power has ended long back, it is economic power that matters - ELSE USSR would not have broken up. Indian must cocentrate on its ECONOMY - grow so rapidly that Pakistan becomes of no cosequence.    

@zafar

I don't care if it's an open market or not in Pakistan - trade with India would still be good for Pakistan, and if the Fauji Foundation dominates the Pakistan market then trade with India would be of great financial benefit to the Fauji Foundation.

Undoubtedly. But would it be good for India? No case have been made that it will, instead we get an implied threat. What does India need tradewise out of Pakistan (except access to Afghanistan).  Karachi port is not that necessary, there are alternate ports like Mundra port and Kandla port.

Its been said that the path to prosperity  lies in trade with Pakistan. As if the absence of that is holding India back. Who comes up with this stuff?

Indian Railways is now forced to cooperate with the Pakistan railways. But they don't seem keen and it smells of an establishment venture that will fail. Manmoham Singh unbelieveably wants to export electricity to Pakistan.

The Congress party loves working contrary to the laws of business and commerce. They dislike building roads and providing electricity but they love grandstanding. Its their feudalistic nature,

If Hindus wanted to send all the Muslims over to Pakistan, wouldn't they vote for the only party that actually seemed that it might end up doing that? You explain.' Zafar

Dear you shifted the stand.

Omar Ali - one thing India definitely has in common with Pakistan: reading these comments you will realise that we boast the equivalents of your 'yahood e hunood se Islam ko khatra hai' types.  Our good fortune and good luck is that these inmates do not (yet) run the asylum.

[Don't think Mahasabha won any big Election Victory.]

But Ghai Bhai, how can this be? If Hindus wanted to send all the Muslims over to Pakistan, wouldn't they vote for the only party that actually seemed that it might end up doing that? You explain.

Regards 

 @ MK Saini

[the Fauji Foundation only know crony capitalism. They only know how to rig markets in their favour. They would not know how to compete in the open market]

I don't care if it's an open market or not in Pakistan - trade with India would still be good for Pakistan, and if the Fauji Foundation dominates the Pakistan market then trade with India would be of great financial benefit to the Fauji Foundation. It's fun to tell people off (on the internet) but you catch more flies with honey.

Regards

That’s why Hindu Mahasabha was universally elected across India in our first elections, '

Zafar

Which Elections you are talking after 1947 and  after Gandhi's killing ? Even in 1946 Elections it was either Muslim League or Congress .Don't think Mahasabha won any big Election Victory.

Hindu Mahasabha went into oblivion the day Godse killed Gandhi .

I am talking about people who actually run the country. The rich capitalists, the big landlords, the bureaucrats, the army high command and so on (some of them think they are liberal, but that is irrelevant for my purposes here). These people can (and in many under-reported ways, are already starting to) develop very practical interest in more normal relations with India. The rhetoric will continue to be mixed with TNT and other bullshit but thats par for the course. "

Omar sahib

What makes you deduce that Army is interested in Normalization with India ?

And secondly how can we believe the Army of Pak per our past experiences /

How we relate to Pak Army's relations with China and gifting of Nuke final satge Nuke Technology to it by the Chinese and even cold testing first Pak nuke as widely rumored. ?

Will or can Pak Generals be allowed to deviate away by the Chinese from their goals in the Sub Continent ?

Rich and Capitalist will be interested in normalising relations with India and let us assume that so may be the Generals but what about the tightened all weather noose in the neck of Pak Nation ?

Agreed it is in interest of India to normalise and be friendly to our sepearted brother .But how ??

Refer 10/D-92:

I was alluding to the fact that Pakistan could not differentiate itself from India on most counts - historically, culturally, geographically or ethnically. 

@zafar

Are you saying that Indo-Pak peace would be most securely achieved when the Fauji Foundation and its feudal pals realise that they will make more money from trade with India than from war and military aid?

nope. the Fauji Foundation only know crony capitalism. They only know how to rig markets in their favour. They would not know how to compete in the open market,. so they will want to take over by force, replicate what they have done in Pakistan on a larger scale. India on the other hand is forming large scale competitive businesses, that are competing globally.  Any Pakistani influence will be disastrous

this is the crux of the problem. This is why Pakistan was formed. I don't who is sponsoring these good will messages . Any Indian gets taken in has to be delusionalor bribed.

www.stratfor.com/analysis/india-china-rivalry-robert-d-kaplan

The link .

Faruki sahib

Sir some valuable comments from you on this subject than the usual rusty homlies you shower upon us ?

"The best way to gauge the relatively restrained atmosphere of the India-China rivalry is to compare it to the rivalry between India and Pakistan. India and Pakistan abut one another. India's highly populated Ganges River Valley is within 480 kilometers (300 miles) of Pakistan's highly populated Indus River Valley. There is an intimacy to India-Pakistan tensions that simply does not apply to those between India and China. That intimacy is inflamed by a religious element: Pakistan is the modern incarnation of all of the Muslim invasions that have assaulted Hindu northern India throughout history. And then there is the tangled story of the partition of the Asian subcontinent itself to consider -- India and Pakistan were both born in blood together.' Robert D. Kaplan

www.stratfor.com/analysis/india-china-rivalry-robert-d-kaplan

Read more: The India-China Rivalry by Robert D. Kaplan | Stratfor

India has twin problems one is the Jehadized Pakistani Army on our West .China is another factor for making us nervous and insecure . China is nurturing,funding and arming Maoists with modern Arms. Arunaditi types ,HRwalas,groups inimical to to the unity of India who have effectively infiltrated the Secular Brigades and all of them are opposing the operations against the Maoists and Jihadis.

Encounter one of the rebels likes of Pak trained Jehadis or Maoists then hordes of these anti Indians will be on roads and in courts reading us the rights of the Terrorists.
On the other hand there are Islamic Terrorists and Logistics Cells of Pak ISI who are very securely sheltered in deep inside in India with active support from within.
Kill one and the Muslims will be on roads shouting and breast beatings that innocent students have been killed like the hangama done in case of Batla House encounter .
Congress plays double game to garner the Muslim Votes .Digvijay Singh wears black sacks and dust and goes to Batla House and Azam Garh shedding tears for the killer Indian Mujahidins liquidated by the Police.And Home Ministry on other hand issues statements that encounter was genuine.

Indians are bewildered by this dual games palyed by the Government but know that Pakistan is behind Islamic Terror which is itself funded by Islamic countries flush with Petor Dolalrs and Maoists' are nurtured by China .

Whatever be the merits of Omar Ali shaib's line that India should help Pakistan though I concede there is some merit in this idea but all the goodwill behind this gesture is nullified by the fact that China and Pakistan have joint common agenda to disintegrate India .

And they studiously act upon it.Peace in the Sub Contnet and friendship of the Countries have no place in this common agenda except for face value.

Nothing will satisfy both China and Pakistan till the unity and geographical borders of India are destroyed.

So how can India help Pakistan ???

Even this latest gesture of Kayani that we mutually withdraw from Saichin is due to compulsion of the Pakistan that Sindh river originates from the glacier under our control .On other hand Ravi,Chenab ,Jhelum Rivers are again under control of India which originate from our side of the Kashmir .

Pakistan should have more interest in peace with India due our control of their water sources but Pakistani Army Generals are short sighted .Peace with India is not in their cross hair .

And in Pakistan it is the Army that matters neither Zardari nor Bhutoes nor Nawaz Sherifs had any say or value other than being the Civilian face of the Pakistan Govt which can be crumbled at will of the Generals like we saw in 1958,Kargil ,arrests and disposal of the Civilian Govts at various times.Except Liaqat Ali Khan's first Govt all other PMs of Pakistan were kicked out by the Army.And even there are serious doubts the way Liquat Ali was felled and assassinated in the public meeting .
All the Civilan Rulers in Pakistan were either killed or hanged or incarcerated or kicked out of the Pak Army .

So Mr Omar Ali how you expect India to help Pakistan when the Pak Army who is the De-facto ruler and controller of the Pakistan wants to remain in total confrontation with India ? ? ?

This confrontation is being further egged on and exasperated by the China whose interests like Pakistan is to harm India grievously.

Mr Omar Ali sahib why not China which is more capable and in better position to help Pakistan rather than India ??

Perhaps tomorrow will be better let us hope .

But sir no discussion on Indo Pak can be complete without factoring China .

Can we have some of your views on this too ??

Pakistan may break,but Hindus are knuckle headed not to understand that India will splinter into many pieces, if they continue to allow Christian forces to dominate the country.Nagaland,Mizoram,Meghalaya,large parts of Kerala and Tamil Nadu are already Christian controlled.Tribal districts of Odisha and Andhra are virtually Christian dominated.Unlike India,Pakistan does not have Christian menace.Pakistan will survive as smaller Muslim countries but India will be obliterated as a Hindu dominated country.Hindus are foolish not to see the writing on the wall.

Rishi Vyas,

>> Nehru said those words a day after Indian independence.

There is no mention of them anywhere on the internet, nor did I hear them before from anyone. I also do not believe Nehru could have said something like that. However since Time magazine of 1947 is not accessible to you or to me, let us drop the subject. No disrespect intended.

[Hindus think that in 1947 the Partition should have been complete and full in all respects.]

That’s why Hindu Mahasabha was universally elected across India in our first elections, and why the Mahasabha, and its descendents, have enjoyed majority vote share in every election since Independence.

Oh, wait….
 

Ganesan

Even if you think it is India’s interest to have weak neighbours (debatable) – a large multiethnic and multipolar Pakistan is probably weaker than a smaller relatively homogenous West Punjab (which would still have the nukes). Size is not everything when it comes to strength – cohesiveness and lack of internal conflict comes into it as well.

Further – right now the Govt of Pakistan is pretty weak – so weak that it cannot really control the ISI, or the local variants of the Taliban (the JeM, the SeS, etc.) – which more or less do what they want (bomb Shia mosques, hide Osama Bin Laden in Abbottabad, carry on using the Taliban for ‘strategic depth’, send terrorists over the loc and also to bomb Mumbai, etc.). You could say that the weaker the Pakistani State is, the worse it is for India because it is precisely the non-State actors that the Pakstani State is unable to control that are engaged in conflict with India.

Regards
 

@ Omar Ali

Are you saying that Indo-Pak peace would be most securely achieved when the Fauji Foundation and its feudal pals realise that they will make more money from trade with India than from war and military aid?

Makes sense to me.
 

 Anwaar
Dallas, United States

Nehru never said that. Sir, do you have the subsciption of Time magazine because the 1947 edition requires a subsciber to access it. I don't say anything without incontrovertible proof. Nehru said those words a day after Indian independence. 

Ghai,

>>  Hindus think that in 1947 the Partition should have been complete and full in all respects.

All Hindus are not as deranged as you are. You talk lightly of a mass migration of unimaginable proportions, as if the mass migration that did occur was not big enough and bad enough. Many Hindus left Pakistan and many Muslims left India, but nobody can be forced to leave their homes by governmental decrees. However that simple fact will not enter that thick skull of yours.

Omar says, "this is not about India doing Pakistan any special favors (or vice versa)".

This is true. Eradication of extremism, hatred and animosity from the subcontinent should be the joint endeavor of all subcontinenatal countries. While no major initiatives may be possible at this time, every little helps.

>> "Nehru on the independence eve said Pakistanis will come back to us in 6 months."

Nehru never said that. We Indians tend to be very inventive in our oral history!

The author says it it himself,

" India will have to scramble to avoid the fallout and given the realities of geography and the capabilities of the Indian state, that is not a job they can do very well."

Can't understand what makes him think that India can do a better job of 'helping' Pakistan. Fact of the matter is India has only a negative influence on Pakistan. Don't see India being able to 'help' Pakistan.

Mr. Ali,

 I take a serious umbrage to you calling communists like Arundhati Roy and Tariq Ali as Western Style liberals. They can be better called Soviet Style idiots.

 Just to clarify a few confusing elements: 

1. About Pakistan, I am not talking about somehow "supporting liberals against salafists". Western style liberals (or Arundhati Roy and Tariq Ali style "liberals") are a smaller and even less relevant faction in Pakistan than they are in India. I said I specifically ignored the Tariq Ali schema while writing this and I would like to add that I ignored most other liberal schemas as well.
2. I am talking about people who actually run the country. The rich capitalists, the big landlords, the bureaucrats, the army high command and so on (some of them think they are liberal, but that is irrelevant for my purposes here). These people can (and in many under-reported ways, are already starting to) develop very practical interest in more normal relations with India. The rhetoric will continue to be mixed with TNT and other bullshit but thats par for the course.
3. There is a harder Islamist core represented by the Jamat e Islami and people like Hafiz Saeed, the Binori town and Haqqania madressas and suchlike. These people are linked with true believers in the army and other institutions. They are not all salafists by their own definition of things. Just like the communist movement, the Islamist movement has endless factions and arguments about purity and fidelity to the founding principles. But all these people tend to support medeival shariah law, they are suspicious of Shias and hate Ahmedis and other heretics and they want a religious state where the state will intrude very vigorously into private lives and where the state will organize on the basis of Islamic solidarity with other Islamist movements and states. This hardcore is also determined to extinguish remaining "Hindu" elements from our culture. Most of them also have at least a vague notion of one day breaking up India and re-establishing "Muslim"
rule over it. They are the main supporters of Islamist terrorism (and want to use it abroad AND at home to impose their will). They are the "enemy" in this discussion.
3. MOST of the ruling class has a confused relationship with the hardcore Islamists. e.g. someone like Musharraf could be drinking whisky and promoting dancing and fashion shows (because he thought that a "soft image" was essential) but also promoting and protecting Jihadi terrorists on strictly "practical" grounds..as force multipliers and other bullshit he learned in NDU. But he sold out some of them to stay on teh right side of the Americans and could conceivably sell out some more. And he was less than halfway there. There are others in the ruling class who would happily shoot most of the jihadis if they thought it was in their interest to do so...and if they thought they COULD do so.
4. Finally, this is not about India doing Pakistan any special favors (or vice versa). "Normal" trade and travel is all we are talking about No favors, no freebies.. All other issues would remain.
5. IF India and Pakistan normalize relations to some reasonable level, then the real battle is going to be within pakistan. The "normalizers" (who are not ncessarily, or even mostly, idealists or liberals, but just people who want to have a more "normal" 21st century life) will then have to fight the hardcore for a long time. With Indian and Chinese and American and Saudi help (some of them will work at cross purposes too). On the other hand, IF this normalization does not occur, then the Islamist core will have a better chance of completely dominating the state, after which they may collapse in a bloody mess or fight a war with India before they collapse in a bloody mess. That outcome may sound very desirable, but it will be extremely violent and India will not escape major ill-effects of that violence.
But it may come to that. I am just saying its worth TRYING to stop it.

                    India should offer to take in the Hindus and Sikhs (and Christians) of Pakistan.

I heard this trial balloon in late 60s. We got more than what we asked for. Isn't that true?

India should offer to take in the Hindus and Sikhs (and Christians) of Pakistan. They will not number much in a few years ( a few 100,000)

Nehru on the independence eve said Pakistanis will come back to us in 6 months. He got it little more than wrong.
 

Nehru still got it wrong. So whats new. Pakistan isn't broke or failing. It has a huge remittance economy that keeps it afloat and its reasonably prosperous by South Asian standards.

 Its just that the Pakistani state is withering away.  The implications of that are not understood but I don' t think it will adversely affect India. There will be no refugee hordes.  The writer of this article is scaremongering.

 In the year 1947, as a 28 year old man, a day before British India independence I was thinking if any of these two countries have to break, which would be the first one. By all means, it was India for me. Bigger, more languages, more religions, more stupidity. And now I have Pakistanis want us to save them. Nehru on the independence eve said Pakistanis will come back to us in 6 months. He got it little more than wrong. 

Omar gives many links to what he says .

That is the beauty and richness of his Essays .And one can never blame him pro any entity.
Impartiality is Omar's hall mark.

 "suggests that India actively take steps to prevent Pakistan from going down to the next level. .."

Even assuming India has such capability(something I doubt), why should India do it? What we have to gain by it? The issue is pretty straightforward as far as India is concerned. Do we want a strong Pakistan or a weakened Pak? Which would be in our long term national interest?

The answer, I think is pretty obvious. It is only when Pak is weak we have peace across the border. Everytime the Pakis become strong, we have got big problems. The goal should be to weaken and dismember Pak. 

 "If Pakistan heads for salafist Islam, India will face not only terrorist attacks or overt hostility, it will find its own problems and weak spots revealed and exploited at a time when it needs to pretend it has moved beyond them in order to actually move beyond them. .."

The path India has to take is not what the author suggests but to break Pak into splinters. Detaching Baluchistan from Pak is a good first step. A united strong Pak is NOT in India's interest. Pak will be a haven for Islamic radicals for the foreseeable future. What we should be doing is to limit the size of Pak and its potential.  It means limiting its trade and money supply. It means limiting its territory. And it means creating problems inside Pak.

"How so ever one may try, Pakistan and India will continue to be mirror image of each other on most chararacteristics!" Subramanian

You're right:

- Pakistan is an Islamic republic, India is a secular republic.

- Pakistan was 25% non-Muslim in 1947 but today it is 99% Muslim. India used to be 8% Muslim in 1947 but now it is 15% Muslim.

- In Pakistan, Hindus, Sikhs and others are second-class citizens. There was an article in Outlook yesterday that said Hindu women were unable to register their marriages since the Pakistani state does not recognize non-Muslim weddings. In India, each religious community has its own civil law.

- In 1971, Pakistan killed 3 million defenseless Hindus in what is now Bangladesh. Not one soldier or civilian was ever punished for these crimes against humanity. In Gujarat in 2002, some 1000 Muslims were killed - many people have been jailed, and Modi continues to be tarred by association every day in Indian newspapers. The ethnic cleansing of 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits in contrast does not interest our media.

- Non-Muslims are forbidden by law from becoming President or Prime Minister of Pakistan. Recently a Christian minister in Sindh(?) was prevented from presenting the annual budget because he was kuffar. In India, we have had 4 Muslim Presidents.

I could go on but it is clear that you are absolutely right that India and Pakistan are mirror images of each other - heck, they are identical twins.

India has real problems due Wahhabi Islam .It was wishful on part of Gandhi and Nehru to imagine and decide that Hindus and Muslims can co-exist peacefully and happily in India post Partition .A noble thought but could not be achieved .As large sections of Muslims in India feel discriminated and Hindus on other hand cry do what you can but Muslims will never be satisfied.
On other hand Jinnah and his followers were very clear in their minds that Hindus and Muslims can leave peacefully and coexist but separately as two Nations and in two Countries.

History has proved Jinnah totally wrong as Muslims of Pakistan proved time and again that they can not live peacefully and coexist even with their own co-religionists .Genocide of Bangla Muslims in 1971 and the manical fratricidal killings now taking place in Pakistan are the examples that Jinnah was wrong in thinking that Muslims will be happy after Partition.

But what about India and Hindus ??

Well let us be honest. Hindus think that in 1947 the Partition should have been complete and full in all respects.No mid path once the Countries were being created on the Religious basis .When it was decided Muslims and Hindus will have separate lands and Countries then why Nehru and Gandhi deviated and polluted the division ? That deviation itself is the root cause of most the problems of India that what hardliner and non hardliner Hindus feel.

The counter argument is that practically total migration of all the Hindus and Muslims was not practical .But then why Partition at all ? And that too in a way that Pakistan got rid of Hindus but Muslims stayed on protected under the name of multiculturalism .

Presently India has its own problems with hardliner Muslims who are nurtured and funded with loads of Petro Dollars from Saudi Arabia .Even Jihadi terrorism in India is nurtured by the funds from Muslim Countries.Terrorists are trained in Pakistan and Bangladeshi camps.

Muslims in India like Pakistani Muslims instead of facing the truth will go on finding the root causes like Bari,Gujarat 2002 ,discrimination in jobs and education on and on but will never move ahead . Noe are willing to shed the past .
Teesta,Clergy and pseudo Secular variety represent these calcified variety of Muslim well wishers majority of whom are doing their dookandari of Votes and are fattening up by the foreign funding.
This in turn has lead to appearance of rightist Hindu organizations .

These groups are nurtured further simultaneously by Politicians for Votes.
 

The Kashmir is the perfect case where the Political misjudgments,Vote bank Politics,stealing of development funds and pandering to clergy has resulted in full blown Jihad like conditions which are kept under control with iron hand .

" Centre wades into Barelvi-Wahabi duel in Kashmir?

Sectarian shadow boxing between Islamic sects is getting full play in Kashmir. It's the 'Good Barelvis' versus 'Dangerous Wahabis'. And the duel seems to be getting some support of the Centre and its agencies. Could this turn out to be the kind of folly the State committed when it played footsie with Bhindranwale in Punjab?

SRINAGAR: Chances are that Pir Jalaluddin, head of the Batmaloo Sahib shrine in Srinagar, never heard the two bullets that hit him on the night of March 17. But for many in Kashmir, these were echoes of a sectarian war in the making in the Valley. The Pir belonged to a new aggressive group of the Barelvi sect of Islam in Kashmir, a grouping that in the past six months has lost no opportunity to rally its large following in the state.

Shrine-going Barelvis constitute about 70% of J&K's Muslims - an overwhelming majority in the Valley. However, the past 20 years have seen the more puritanical Wahabis like Ahle Hadith make rapid inroads in the state - a spread that is often ascribed to vast inflow of foreign funds to these organisations from Saudi Arabia. Thanks to their resources, Wahabi groups have ensured easy availability of Wahabi literature.'
 

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Centre-wades-into-Barelvi-Wahabi-duel-in-Kashmir/articleshow/12860076.cms

Tragedy is that Politicians and Clergy have learnt nothing right from 1947 onwards that if one plays with fire then chances are he will be consumed by the fire himself.

We Indians are condmned to live and repeat History once again .

Omar Ali is right that India can't remain aloof what happens in Pakistan true .

But sir ,aren't you saying in 'dabbi juban' that in  both the cases Islam has a major role ???
( Sorry  No translation is possible for it )

The Future is clear and inevitable. Pakistan, created on a false basis, is bound to collapse. Union with India is the only solution (a la ther Germanys). It shall be painful, especially to India. But I see no other outcome.

Saner voices on Paki side shall prevail, and the extremists shall lose support. It might take a few decades.And more pain for the Pakistanis. And, collaterally, India.

Beautifully pricise and brillliantly accurate.

It helps that it is saying exactly the same as my comment on the opinion piece by Lt Gen. Katoch-Tryst with deceit

this is like blackmail

How so ever one may try, Pakistan and India  will continue to be mirror image of each other on most chararacteristics!

When the government, the press and decent citizens are all cowed by marauding hordes such as Tahreek-e-Taliban, Difa-e-Pakistan, Lashkar-e-Tayyeba and others, the possibility of a peaceful change does not exist. A military dictatorship which used religion to legitimize itself set Pakistan on this disastrous course. A military dictatorship which can exclude religion from public affairs may have a better chance of bringing some sanity to Pakistani society.

 

Nagaraj,

>> "Indira Gandhi in her wisdom said 'We have enough Muslim problem in India.Why should we have more headache by adding Muslims of liberated East Pakistan also?"

Indira Gandhi never said that! Why do you keep inventing such lies?

When East Pakistan was liberated to become Bangladesh,some people in India suggested that India should take over the liberated part.Indira Gandhi in her wisdom said 'We have enough Muslim problem in India.Why should we have more headache by adding Muslims of liberated East Pakistan also?'That wise thinking applies to present day India also.