Muslim's in india seem to have bcome a lot without any dignity.

They dont want work themselved up by looking inward and see why is it that they encounter the social rejection..instead they seek entitlement...why...to remind the hindus that they had imposed jazia on them...

Look at the Parsis...came to india after loss of their empire...lived through hardship for over a century..
today the most prosperous community...yet you wont see a parsi taking up a seat in colleges or government thru the quota system...

It would be nice if what is happening in terms of their numbers happened to the muslims....At the same time i wish if not to muslims it should happen to hindus so that they dont have to suffer the indignity of having to feed the butchers.

ANWAAR:

>>Instead of jumping to answer every stupid question asked

God bless you, Anwaar -- you just soldier on.

I salute your courage; your indefatigability.

In case you missed it, could you take a look

at my earlier question below? Answer if you

feel like it. I sense a kinship with you...

Akil,

>> could have posted this answer much before without all the the abuse.

Instead of jumping to answer every stupid question asked, it is sometimes better to identify the questioner as being either hate-motivated or stupid or both.

The "glorious past" was attributable to a multiplicity of factors
A logical answer. ANWAAR could have posted this answer much before without all the the abuse. ANWARR should learn to "agree to disagree" without getting agitated.

>> But this is almost impossible for the readers of the Qur'an-e-Pak to resolve -- either it was dictated by Jibreel or it was not

I dont think it is impossible. Many have decided/resolved it in their minds, one way or the other - and many more will do so in the days to come. Thats the fear of the extremists.

Anwaar:

Are you by any chance a Gujarati?

(Reply only if you're ok with it)

>>Stop asking stupid questions for a change. Your hate prachar should not be such that it clearly shows your basic stupidity.

I admire the tenacity evident in your replies.

But perhaps I give you too much credit.

You probably get a kick out of it!

Akil,

>> If MUSLIMS give credit for their GLORIOUS PAST to ISLAM, they have to accept that ISLAM is the reason for the present plight of MUSLIMS making them seek RESERVATION claiming that MUSLIMS are at the lowest strata of society in India.

The "glorious past" was attributable to a multiplicity of factors, not just Islam, and similarly the present plight of Muslims in India too is attributable to several factors, including partition leaving them for several decades as the unwanted left-overs, and the fact that the majority of Muslims who remained in India had never recovered from the scars of thousands of years of dalithood. By the way, in the "present plight" do you also include the fact that there are a lot of very wealthy Muslim countries in the world. They too did not become prosperous because of Islam but because of other factors.

But these factors should mean nothing to you because your sole purpose is to somehow or the other impugn Islam. Do you blame Hinduism for the fact that invaders ruled them for 700 years or for the fact that even today the land is torn by insurgencies and divisions? Your argument has no substance, nor does your head.

ANWAAR- If MUSLIMS give credit for their GLORIOUS PAST to ISLAM, they have to accept that ISLAM is the reason for the present plight of MUSLIMS making them seek RESERVATION claiming that MUSLIMS are at the lowest strata of society in India. The difficulty you face in accepting it being a MUSLIM is understandable and the frustration of having to face such uncomfortable question makes you abusive.

Anwaar:

>>The question of "blaming" Islam or Hinduism for their vicissitudes throughout history is a dumb way of looking at things.

What else would you blame for the mass
temple demolitions, or the destruction
of stupas by resurgent Hinduism in the
first millenium A.D.? Looting Hindu
temples is understandable; the gold was
an attraction to the Ghaznis and Qasims
of the world. But how do you explain
this fact: that in the states of Punjab,
Haryana and Uttar Pradesh -- a vast, vast
area -- there is not a single Hindu temple
older than 350 years, while there are
many thousand-year plus temples in central,
western and southern India that survived
both the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughals?

Why this complete annihilation of all the
symbols of jahiliyya? The real issue is
that this process continues today -- it is
not some distant tale from the past. Read
a official Pakistani history school text;
the Hindu-Buddhist history is mentioned
only in passing, with utter contempt; the
REAL history only commences with Muhammad
Bin Qasim, who was the 'First Pakistani'!

Irreligion does not entail a repudiation
of the cultural accretions that have
been handed to us over the centuries;
we can appreciate Sufi poetry or the
Perso-Islamic architecture of Esfahan
that the Taj Mahal or Humayun's tomb
represents. We can read the Rigveda
with a cultural interest -- it is a
virtual tape recorder from the Bronze
Age -- and it educates us in the Indo-
European migration or language debate.

The problem has been -- and still
is, a literalist reading of texts.

But this is almost impossible for
the readers of the Qur'an-e-Pak to
resolve -- either it was dictated
by Jibreel or it was not. Hindu
traditions are fortunately more
mystical -- and less literalist.

We can conserve cultural artifacts,
and regard the text as just fiction.
(In Islam's case, plagiarized fiction!)

Akil,

>> try answering a stupid question for a change.

Stop asking stupid questions for a change. Your hate prachar should not be such that it clearly shows your basic stupidity.

ANWAAR, try answering a stupid question for a change. Why are you avoiding it all together.

Akil,

>> ANWAAR wouldn't answer the basic question - "If MUSLIMS give credit for their GLORIOUS PAST....

Because it is a stupid question. The question of "blaming" Islam or Hinduism for their vicissitudes throughout history is a dumb way of looking at things. No sensible person would ask such a question.

But ANWAAR wouldn't answer the basic question - "If MUSLIMS give credit for their GLORIOUS PAST to ISLAM why can NOT ISLAM be blamed for the present plight of MUSLIMS and they seeking RESERVATION?" Would he???

Akil,

>> The subject is QUOTAS FOR MUSLIMS and so the discussion will have to be on religious ground.

The subject is about a community, not about a religion. You are using it to give vent to your foul gutter level hatefulness. The communities which have been granted quotas did not get them on the basis of the excellence or worthlessness of their religions. Is this too hard for you?

dear akil
its quota for dalit muslims and obc muslims and not across the board.dalit converts to sikhism/buddhism get the benefits while christian dalits have access to christian educational institutions.it has been done successfully in the southern states with the exception of andhra where the upper caste dominated courts try all tricks to block/dilute reservation.
there r quiet a bit of rich people among urdu speaking high caste muslims and most of the comments on more muslim spending than hindus/more success rate in upsc etc r due to them.all muslim tribals have resrvation in place for them.its only asked for castes like weavers/barbers/swee...s/sweepers/fishermen etc.

The subject is QUOTAS FOR MUSLIMS and so the discussion will have to be on religious ground. Why should INDIA give reservation to MUSLIMS because of them following the "outdated" ideology of ISLAM?? ANWAAR hasn't answered the basic question - "If MUSLIMS give credit for their GLORIOUS PAST to ISLAM why can NOT ISLAM be blamed for the present plight of MUSLIMS and they seeking RESERVATION?"

Akil,

>> if the credit for good that happen to a group can be attributed to the IDEOLOGY they follow....

Thinking in such simplistic terms is not analysis. Reducing the discussion to 'credit' and 'blame' is childish. You have gone back to your old malicious habit of bringing up religion in every post. Perhaps your shakha requires you to do so !

>> Analysis of this subject cannot be done by a shakha trained ignoramus like you

Analysis can be done by anyone. Those who don't like it can reject it.

Trying to define as to who can or cannot do something is a sign of a mean and fascist spirit.

"Analysis of this subject cannot be done by a shakha trained ignoramus like you".

ANWAAR, if the credit for good that happen to a group can be attributed to the IDEOLOGY they follow why can NOT the DISCREDIT for the reverses suffered by same group be attributed to the same IDEOLOGY? If MUSLIMS give credit for their GLORIOUS PAST to ISLAM why can NOT ISLAM be blamed for the present plight of MUSLIMS and they seeking RESERVATION? If ISLAM continued to be such a fantastic ideology as it was during the middle ages, the MUSLIMS should have been the most prosperous people in the world, which is NOT true even in ISLAMIC COUNTRIES created specifically on religious grounds like PAKISTAN and BANGLADESH? So Its just basic logic- if ISLAM was the reason for the glorious past of MUSLIMS it just have to be the reason for the plight of MUSLIMS in present day world. ANWAAR, You can now start abusing because you have no logical answer to reply with.

Akil,

>> what about another police IG- a MUSLIM.

Danger from communally biased police is a lot greater for the minorities than for the majority.

>> a book alluding that Mr Kharkare was killed by Hindu fanatics during 26/11.

The book should be judged and criticized on its merits, but he is not known for publishing any hate material either before or after the publication of his book. Ohri on the other hand is a preofessional sanghi hate peddler.

>> PAKI Foreign Minister using that to malign India.

They do it to us, and we do it to them.

>> in spite of one PAKI terrorist have been captured alive.

I have not read the book. The Muslim view I heard was that the main attack was launched by the Pakis but there was an anti-Karkare subplot. I don't believe it so I am not going to read the book.

>> Your CAIR background makes you abuse anyone who is not PRO-ISLAM.

That is a lie. I had called you an ill-bred moron only when you were behaving like an ill-bred moron. I do not abuse you when you do not act like an ill-bred moron.

>> MUSLIMS attribute the glorious ISLAMIC EMPIRES of the medieval period ......

Analysis of this subject cannot be done by a shakha trained ignoramus like you.

ANWAAR, what about another police IG- a MUSLIM- publishing a book alluding that Mr Kharkare was killed by Hindu fanatics during 26/11 and PAKI Foreign Minister using that to malign India, in spite of one PAKI terrorist have been captured alive. The ISLAMIC intelligentsia of India would have branded the entire 26/11 as HINDUTVA plot had that PAKI not been caught alive. Your CAIR background makes you abuse anyone who is not PRO-ISLAM.

MUSLIMS attribute the glorious ISLAMIC EMPIRES of the medieval period- from Turkey, Spain, Arabia, Persia, India and all the way to Central Asian Republics- to the greatness of the teachings of ISLAM. If that be so why can NOT the downfall of ISLAM to a stage when the "MUSLIMS who were the RULERS" have to demand "reservation" as they are unable to compete on equal footing with the rest of the world also attributed to the "resistance of ISLAM to change" to suit the modern world?? The MUSLIMS are suffering even with 100% reservation as is evident in Pakistan and Bangladesh- those MUSLIMS were Indian Muslims till 1947 and enjoy 100% reservation in these two countries. Evidently, converting from ISLAM to any other religion is the only hope for MUSLIMS to prosper.

Jaykumar,

>> Shri R.K. Ohri, a retired I.G. Police had written numerous Articles on the subject.

Ohri is a bitter anti-Muslim propagandist who has been circulating hate articles on the internet, and had a venomous article published in Daniel Pipes hate website. One can understand the anxiety of Muslims when such hate merchants can become Police I.G.'s.

The next 'commie LIE'." - - -.Sachar Commission which has national approval ".

The 'Myths & Lies' perpetrated by the Sachar ' KHAN ' Committee is currently being heard by a Division Bench of the Delhi High Court. The next hearing is slated for the first week of March 2010. The 'Patriot's Forum' has challenged the Sachar 'Khan' report !!


Shri R.K. Ohri, a retired I.G. Police had written numerous Articles on the subject. In one of them, he wrote:

" According to National Family Health Survey-2 (held in 1998-99) there were 107 cases of Child Mortality per 1000 births among Hindus compared to a meagre 83 such cases among Muslims which indicated an adverse differential of 29 per cent against Hindus vis a vis Muslims. It is a universally recognised truth that higher incidence of Infant and Child Mortality is a direct consequence of poor nutritional intake caused by acute poverty and inadequate access to medical care ".

Further. " The degree of urbanisation, or the proportion of a community?s population living in urban areas is another important globally recognised human development indicator. According to Census 2001, barely 26 per cent Hindus live in urban areas (i.e., only 21,63,15,573 out of a total of 82,75,78,868 Hindus), while the Muslim percentage of city-dwellers is much higher at 36 per cent, i.e. nearly 10 percent higher than Hindus. Among Muslims there are 4,93,93,496 urban dwellers out of a total population of 13,81,88,240 showing that only 64 per cent Muslims are agriculture dependant, as against 74 per cent Hindus ".

Again. " The average life expectancy at birth is yet another globally recognised development indicator of socio-economic status of a community. In this, too, the Muslims are much better off than Hindus. According to the calculations made by two reputed demographers, Mari Bhat and Francis Zavier the average life expectancy at birth for Muslims is 1.2 years higher than that of the Hindus - the respective averages being 62.6 per cent for Muslims and 61.4 per cent for Hindus".

And. An analytical Paper presented by Shri Sanjay Kumar (Fellow, Centre for Study of Developing Studies) in a Seminar held on September 2, 2006, at the prestigious Indian Institute of Public Adminstration, New Delhi, highlighted the fact that a survey of the National Election Study, conducted by CSDS after interviewing 27,000 respondents, revealed that there is hardly any difference among the level of educational attainments among Hindus and Muslims. It further asserted that contrary to the common belief that Muslims are poorer compared to Hindus, the findings of the NES revealed hardly any difference in the level of economic prosperity . More importantly, it highlighted the fact that at the national level the proportion of those who would fall in the very poor class is more among the Hindus compared to the Muslims. Interestingly Shri Sanjay Kumar's Seminar Paper was co-authored by the well-known secular psyphologist Prof. Yogendra Yadav who heads the Centre for Study of Developing Societies.

If the foregoing was not enough, the financial daily - The Economic Times - in its edition of 12 Jun 2009, had a 'revealing' Article entitled : " Muslims spend more than Hindu
peers ". Sailesh Dhobal & Bhanu Pande wrote : " Forget all half-baked opinions you may have heard on the economic state of religious communities in India. Truth be told, at the national level, Hindus and Muslims are closer than you thought as far as average household income, expenditure, savings and even ownership of select consumer goods go. In fact, in rural India, the gap between the two communities’ narrows appreciably and even reverses in some cases in favour of Muslims".

Again. " If you thought Muslims alone were steeped in poverty, read on. Hindus and Muslims, at a national level, run neck-and-neck on average annual household income (AHI) of Rs 61, 423 and Rs 58,420, respectively. Or, to put it differently, an average Hindu household has an income of Rs 168 per day, while an average Muslim household earns Rs 160 a day. In rural India, an average Hindu AHI is Rs 49,077 with Muslim close behind with AHI of Rs 47,805. On income parameters, at least, Hindus and Muslims are, indeed, bhai-bhai".

Further. " At the national level, Hindu and Muslim households virtually mirror each other on ownership of a host of products—cars ( 5.1% and 4.3%), two-wheeler (35.3% and 31.3%), refrigerator (17.9% and 15.9%) and radio (49.5% and 51.3%). Turn to rural India and Muslim households have an edge on not just AHRE, but even car ownership (2.6% versus 2.4% of Hindu households) ". The E.T. Article was based on the findings of the NCAER.

Lastly, on the subject of the Sachar 'Khan' Committee , has been the timely publication of a book authored by Dr. Rakesh Sinha, and aptly titled : " Sachar Committee – Conspiracy to Divide the Nation ". The book makes certain disturbing revelations.During his study of the Sachar papers, sinha found that Saiyed Hamid, Abusaleh Shariff and some others worked on subjects which had no direct or indirect relationship with the terms and references of the committee, all with the explicit permission of the chairman Rajinder Sachar. The composition of the committee itself spoke volumes of its character – it was completed dominated by Muslims. Sinha’s careful scrutiny of the Sachar papers revealed that one member of the committee Dr Rakesh Basant actually aired his misgivings to Rajinder Sachar; “If you look at the allocation of work, it is completely lopsided. Several of us are assigned that are a very small part of the Terms Of Reference [e.g. mine], some of us have tasks that have not been mentioned in the TOR (e.g. Saiyed Hamid)” .


Sinha further brings to light the hidden agenda of the committee was aimed at dereserving SC/ST communities where there is a considerable Muslim population. Saiyid Hamid in an email to Justice Sachar wrote “A large number of parliamentary and assembly constituencies with substantial Muslim population have been reserved under the category of SC and ST. Consequently the representation of the Muslims in the legislatures has been adversely affected. The reserved status of all these constituencies which has proved detrimental to minority interests needs to be withdrawn before next LS elections so that justice is restored to the Muslim across the country” .

From the foregoing it is amply clear, and as Sinha brings out in his book, the modus operandi of the Sachar committee had been to treat the Muslims as another caste and fraudulently contrast them against some relatively well off Hindu OBCs. Legitimization of reservation for Muslims was the ultimate goal of the 'Sachar Khan Committee'.

MUSLIMS are backward all over the world and in India too only because of the ISLAMIC ideology they follow. Unless the MUSLIMS change their ideology they will never progress. If reservation could ensure progress of MUSLIMS why are MUSLIMS of Pakistan and Bangladesh backward despite enjoying 100% reservation??? Weren't all these MUSLIMS were INDIAN MUSLIMS till 14-8-1947???

"Hindutva groups did oppose the Hindu Code Bill. Ambedkar and Nehru rammed it through'

Thanks Nehru and Ambedkar .Good you are supporter of similar Code Bill for Muslims too.

Anwaar shaib why we should not have a common Civil code if we really want to be a true Secular country ? Seperate Codes for seperate Religeons Negates Secularism .

>> The Gita, Ramayana, etc are mythologies. At least many Hindus, if not a majority, accept them to be such. The more vile scriptures, such as the Manusmriti, are denounced and rejected by many Hindus.
>> That's not true of the Qur'an in any way.

The nature of the doctrine is different. The Quran is said to be dictated or directly narrated from Divine origin. So if one agrees to that doctrine, it has to be taken in full or else, it has to be rejected altogether as a spiritually irrelevant document.

My 2 cents on the scriptural debate here:

The Gita, Ramayana, etc are mythologies.
At least many Hindus, if not a majority,
accept them to be such. The more vile
scriptures, such as the Manusmriti, are
denounced and rejected by many Hindus.

That's not true of the Qur'an in any way.
At most, you have some Muslims rejecting
the validity of some Hadith, or you have
the Isma'ilis with their esoteric views
of the Koran. Such interpretations are
strongly denounced by mainstream Sunni
clergy. So Islam has a long way to go.

Both the Hindu and Islamic scriptures
are filled with fairy-tale nonsense.

But there's a difference.

The Mahabharata, whatever its literary
merits, is an original and interesting
story. As is the Ramayana. Both have
clearly seen generations of authorship.

Mr. Muhammad, on the other
hand, stole his fairy-tales.

He plagiarized them from
Jews and from Christians.

The Qur'an is really nothing more
than a recycling of the worst bits
of both Judaism and Christianity.

Akil:

>>WAHABI ISLAM is pulling ISLAM back from the level of progress it had reached.

Um, Wahabbi Islam IS Islam. It's a
back-to-the-desert-basics of Islam,
a return to the so-called 'Prophet'
and all his attendant thuggery and
barbarism. Read up on Asma Marwan
for starters to see why the Rushdie
or cartoon flareups were expected.

Saurabh,

>> the Sachar report, the Gospel of discrimination can’t show valid data for that.

It is not the gospel of discrimination. The data is there for those who can see.

>> conversion rate of Muslims vs. non-Muslims for UPSC.

UPSC is a heavily monitored and under public scrutiny. It accounts for only a small percentage of the job market.

Ghai,

>> Togadia & Sinhgal none even remembers them any more. Modi defanged both.

Modi and VHP do not get along, but neither has defanged the other.

@Anwaar
Read what I said earlier:
Even the Sachar report, the Gospel of discrimination can’t show valid data for that. Forget that it was based on sample surveys, the report itself claims there is no pan India or pan-state trend and argues for district level data to be used for policy making. Interestingly, when Sachar evaluated the conversion rate of Muslims vs. non-Muslims for UPSC, StatePSC exams and IIMs, the conclusion was plain: the conversion rate (called for interviews vs. final selection) for Muslims was same as for Non-Muslims and in some cases even better!!

'And you did not seem to think that the vicious campaign of Singhal and Togadia to deny jobs and housing to Muslims deserved any comment! '


Faruki

Togadia & Sinhgal none even remembers them any more.Modi defanged both .Atleast that much credit you can give him.Both were painted larger than life by the media , Seculars and Muslims.Another media creation is Muttalik of Ram Sene .None bothers for him .

As if Singal and Togdia say don't give jobs to Muslims then we will deny them .

Private Sector employs for talent and capabilty of the individual not for one's Religeon .

Govt is of Congress .We persume Secus practise what they preach . UPA Govts will not listen to Togdias or Singhals.Hence Muslims should have been better represented in Public Sector too.

Interestingly represantaion of Muslims is much higher percentage wise in Gujrat in jobs than in Congress Ruled states all though Togdia stays in Ahemedabad .

Saurabh,

>> I said Sachar's research does not show discrimination.

No you did not. You said, "So Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat and other states must mean all the rest. Sachar does not count!" That is not a clear way of claiming that Sachar's report "does not show discrimination." But the report did imply discrimination. It said, " The Committee found that Muslim parents are not averse to mainstream education or to send their children to affordable Government schools. But the access to government schools for Muslim children is limited.......The average amount of bank loan disbursed to the Muslims is 2/3 of the amount disbursed to other minorities......There is a clear and significant inverse association between the proportion of the Muslim population and the availability of educational infrastructure in small villages.......Most of the variables indicate that Muslim-OBCs are significantly deprived in comparison to Hindu-OBCs", and so on. No government appointed commission is going to directly charge discrimination. It implies it as diplomatically as possible. And you did not seem to think that the vicious campaign of Singhal and Togadia to deny jobs and housing to Muslims deserved any comment!

>> Tell me how do you follow Ramayan, a historical account ( actually a fiction in secular-speak) ?

Ramayana and Gita are Hindu religious texts, aren't they? You had said, "show me any entity or say an Islamic counterpart of entities like RSS (and the variants), who actually say something like “We do not want everything as per Quran”." So the question naturally arises whether the RSS and the VHP have actually said that they do not want everything from the Gita and the Ramayana. Whether the Ramayana and the Quran are "historical accounts" or not is not the point. They are both sacred scriptures, one according to the Hindus and the other according to Muslims. Raising the question of either community spurning their own scriptures is not a sagacious exercise.

>> Geeta is largely about Philosophy and Spirituality.

I respect the Gita and the Ramayana, but comparing sacred texts of different religions to play one-upmanship games is sheer stupidity.

@Anwaar
That you can read, understand and express yourself very very well is almost obvious, but to respond here you will have to deal with 'uneducated' creatures like me who can't even understand your profound statements, what to say about expressing opinions. Sorry, but that is all I can do.
Now on your profoundities:
I said Sachar's research does not show discrimination and you are asking me whether I am comparing Sachar with VHP. Please explain why did you not call Paris a Buffallo? Anwaar?
No Obfuscations Please.

Evil is to be found in Manusmriti but when looking for vileness, it has to be found in following, not Manusmriti, but Ramayan and Geeta! Logic ? Honesty? Desperation? Islamist Strategy? Which one, Anwaar? It is only with very high standard of decorum, that one refrains from attributing motives to your positions, motives, which are logically difficult to deny.

On your obfuscation claims: Tell me how do you follow Ramayan, a historical account ( actually a fiction in secular-speak) ? Before you turn around with another of your CAIR learnt tricks, to claim Quran also is a historical account, be reminded that Quran presents itself as a book of Guidance (which also includes ALLAH-legislated Laws along our with a categorical disclaimer that the laws are independent of Time, location, people or any context for that matter ) whose mother version on golden tablets is believed to be in possession of celestial babes waiting in the heaven for the return of Jihaadis (or is all that allegory of some kind?
If you were genuinely interested in the reality, you might have known that Geeta is largely about Philosophy and Spirituality and it never claims itself to be the Law with the divine Disclaimer. All of it might be useless or nonsensical or whatever, but among the famous followers were Mahatma Gandhi and today a number of world's leading Management Gurus and their CEO-level clients: same as Jihadis or Sanghis! Right? (don't revert with Gandhi's opinion about Prophet). If you want to maintain any pretense of genuine debate, stop your lame attempts at creating equivalences between Ramayan, Geeta and Quran.
Even if RSS/VHP want to follow (whatever follow means) Geeta and Ramayan, to convince someone, that this is even a small fraction as murderous as those Quran carrying terrorists bombing the infidels on their way to Jannat for the global calliphate, you will have to go to an asylum, apart from those Sharia dreaming-breathing Islamicates.

Saurabh,

>>>> Tell this to Singhal and Togadia of the VHP who for the past several years have been going from town to town in Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat and other states preaching job discrimination and housing discrimination against Muslims.
>> Sachar does not count!

Are you comparing Sachar to those two hate pracharaks?

Saurabh,

>> a secular-consensus that to compare RSS and VHP, nothing less than Taliban or AL-Qaeda will do.

This is an exaggerstion. Abhinav Bharatis and the Bajrangis of Gujarat and Orissa maybe, but the point being made is likely to be about intolerance, exclusivism and taking the law in one's hands.

>> The long-term goal for Islamist governance held out by al Qaeda’s ideology is “to unify all Islamic countries into a single Islamic state or Caliphate".

I have called such goals evil and crazy several times, and I have condemned Al Qaeda several times, so why do you bring this up to me? Regarding public opinion polls, there are several reputable polls which I have posted that show that Muslims favor democracy and pluralism.

>> political Islamist groups are popular in the Arab world.

Just as Hindutva groups are popular in India.

>> For many Arabs, politics and religion are two inseparable concepts.

That is a problem and needs to be corrected. BTW it applies also to many parivaris.

>> 72 percent supported the government peace deal with the Taliban there.

That opinion seems to have shifted drastically since that poll. I have said repeatedly that the Muslim world has a long way to go before they come to terms with real democracy and secularism. This too is true of many parivaris, notably Golwalkar.

Saurabh,

>> Cruel, I am (like all the sanghis), but not enough.

Can't you clearly say what you want to say instead of giving me this gobbledegook?

>> When you want to show Hinduism to be as bad...

Is this your way to avoid answering my question, "Do RSS and VHP say they do not want any part of the Gita or the Ramayana?" Answer my question, please?

>> Secular Gospel command something on the lines, No Muslim – Terror, No Islam-Terror, Only Oppression.

Again you are trying to obfuscate. My point was that you do not even know yourself if you deny your hostility and sarcasm towards Islam. If you do not even know yourself, how can you know anyone else.

If you can't express yourself clearly in plain English, please do not bother to answer.

If all Indian Muslims as a GROUP feels that they are not progressing in India while every other minority in India- SIKHS, Jains, Buddhist, Jews, Christians, Parsees etc NOT only have no similar complaint but are happy to be in India including the TIBETAN BUDDHIST, it just has to do with some problem with the ideology they follow - ISLAM. So they must try out some other ideology by converting to any of the INDIAN RELIGIONS. It would change their fortunes in India.

>>Tell this to Singhal and Togadia of the VHP who for the past several years have been going from town to town in Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat and other states preaching job discrimination and housing discrimination against Muslims.

So Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat and other states must mean all the rest. Sachar does not count!
Your transparency shines and the agenda unmistakable . I have little more to add.

@Anwaar
Now Sanghis: It is fundamentalism and fascism itself that are defined through Sanghis; especially in Indian Secular-Speak. In any case there is no less than a secular-consensus that to compare RSS and VHP, nothing less than Taliban or AL-Qaeda will do. You could have at least showed some Moderate Islamic groups or anyone, except the apostates.
Accepting your claim that VHP and RSS want everything as per Gita and Ramayana (till you wish to add Manusmriti also in this list), let us look at other examples:
http://www.worldpubl...TARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
The long-term goal for Islamist governance held out by al Qaeda’s ideology is “to unify all Islamic countries into a single Islamic state or Caliphate.” 70% - Egyptians, 69 % - Pakis, only 35%-Indonesians, said they agreed with this goal. In late 2006, 71 percent of Moroccans were in agreement. In Egypt 81 percent said they agreed with the al Qaeda goal of “requir[ing] a strict application of Shari’a law in every Islamic country” (65% strongly); only 12 percent disagreed. Pakistanis were similar with 76 percent agreeing with this goal (52% strongly); 5 percent disagreed. Indonesians, however, agreed by only a narrow plurality: 49 percent supported the goal (just 14% strongly), while 42 percent disagreed. In Morocco in late 2006, 76 percent agreed.

http://clients.squar...tical_Islam_Poll.pdf
The majority of respondents (85%) agree that political Islamist groups are popular in the Arab world. Main reasons for this popularity include: They are the only alternative to the regimes (25%) They are not corrupt (23%).
For many Arabs, politics and religion are two inseparable concepts, with 68% of respondents saying they did not believe the two should be separated in the Muslim world In fact, the majority (62%) of respondents said their main wish for political Islam is that it would aid in the creation of a political and legal system based on the prevailing interpretation of sharia. 43% would also want political Islam to replace corrupt regimes.
Of the various Islamist groups listed, Hamas (39%), Muslim Brotherhood (33%) and Hezbollah (30%) were seen as the best exponents of political Islam.

http://blogs.reuters...e-over-sharia-views/
Another poll, by the International Republican Institute, relativises this shift a bit. Conducted in March, before the height of the Taliban-army clash in Swat and the video of Taliban flogging a teenage local girl that reportedly turned Pakistani opinion against the militants, it shows more sympathy for the Taliban’s sharia demands. While 74 percent said religious extremism was a problem in Pakistan, 80 percent supported the introduction of sharia in Swat and 72 percent supported the government peace deal with the Taliban there. Some 56 percent said they would support the Taliban if they demanded sharia in other cities such as Karachi, Multan, Quetta or Lahore.

http://www.gallup.co...ng-views-sharia.aspx
A Gallup Poll conducted in Iran in 2007 shows a majority of residents think that Sharia, the body of Islamic rules and principles that informs a Muslim's life, should have some influence on legislation. However, Egyptians and Turks surveyed offer strikingly contrasting views.

What what: Opinion Polls mean nothing, they are either misleading or an Imperial-Zionist conspiracy against Islam.

>>Read Manusmriti. Hinduism has come a long ways from it, and so will Islam.
Anwaar Anwaar: are you serious here ? Hinduism has come a long and Islam will?
Well, Cruel, I am (like all the sanghis), but not enough, so I request, you may reconsider your position before I respond on this.

>>Do RSS and VHP say they do not want any part of the Gita or the Ramayana?
When you want to show Hinduism to be as bad as suited for your convenience, you quote Manusmriti. When you have to show how bad are Hindus to follow something as vile as Manusmriti, you not only move to RSS and VHP, but also jump to Geeta and Ramayan!! What happened to Manusmriti? Is this jumping around part of some ‘Debate by Dodge’ course or some Islamist canon on Strategic debating? No complaints, if it was just your innocence!

>>If you know so little about yourself, how could you know anything about Muslims?
Know anything about Muslims? Really, are you saying Muslims are not as oppressed as I implied? But didn’t the Secular Gospel command something on the lines, No Muslim – Terror, No Islam-Terror, Only Oppression – Terror? What Anwaar ? You Apostatized, Repent Now or Sure Hell-fire (the secular hell, if you will).

dear paul
quota is already in place for muslims in the southern states who r the pioneer in reservation and had really improved the affected communities.in tamilnadu they were clubbed with backward classes and for the last 2 yrs they have a subquota within the obc quota.the same in karnataka.the christians were given subquota but the cutoff was more than that off hindu obcs and hence they requested for abolition of subquota and continue as obcs.its not applicable for muslim higher castes and this is the reason that the muslim syeds and owaisis are against caste based quotas and demand for the community as a whole.
proper implementation of quota for obc muslims and dalit muslims will create a leadership from them(abdul kalam is an obc)like what happened in hindus with the maya/nitish/sharad/l.../lalu/mulayam/karuna giving back to the upper caste leadership.
it has no logic in giving reservation to sikh and buddhist dalits but not to christian and muslim dalits.tribal muslims like vangujjars get reservation and hence they r not part of any militant group and r viewed with suspicion by the kashmiri muslim groups and isi.

"why cant the religious gurus like shankaracharyas announce that same gothra marriage is no wrong"-

GANAPATHI- Same gotra marriage is not wrong in most parts of India. Hindus of same Gotra marrie in all south and East Indian states. It is considered wrong only parts of North India.
gurus like shankaracharyas and scriptures like Manusmriti has very less control over Hindus unlike Mullahs and QUR'AN control over MUSLIMS. A Muslim who does NOT abide by QUR'AN and live stops being a MUSLIM but HINDUS do not have to follow any religious scripture to be a HINDU. In fact a HINDU can "openly declare that he doesn't believe in GOD and everyone believing in GOD is a scoundrel" and still continue to be a HINDU. Can followers of ISLAM/ Christianity do similarly and retain their religion??? That is the greatest SECULAR CHARACTER of HINDUISM. European nation profess secularism by separating church from the state but HINDUISM is inherently secular- Pray to any GOD including ALLAH and JESUS and you can still be a HINDU as long as the individual does not insist that "his GOD is the only GOD and all other GODS are false GODS".

Last post was under the Quota for Muslims.

My appologies .Sorry

>> Read Manusmriti.

Well, I didn't read it, but since you keep talking about it periodically, I looked it up on Wikipedia. And look what I found

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Manusm%E1%B9%9Bti

It is one of the most controversial works of Hindu literature owing to its discrimination against women and Shudras [1][2] [3] ; but today all these sutras (antifeminist and antishudra) are considered as additions under the influence of the Islam (the Koran being favorable to the cloisement of the woman)[4], who began from the plunders of the tenth century in the North of India, and in reaction of the Islam (the Muslims were considered as very low castes)[5], and the strict ossification of the Indian society was, for the historians, the only means to make the Indian culture continue in front of the Islamic equaliterian imperialism

>> Took Hinduism 4000 years to abolish sati and untouchability.

Where do the seculars get these numbers from?

Is there absolutely any evidence that these practices are 4000 years old, or is it one of those SECULAR LIES, challenging which automatically makes one a Sanghi and a fascist?

>> but nearly one lac sikhs were killed including figure of 1984 butchery

Let's not get carried away. The savagery and brutality was bad enough, and does not need to be exaggerated so much.

".sikh militancy changed the demography of punjab and punjabi hindus who were about 45% in punjab came down to 30s and the number of hindus killed during khalistan movement was in several thousands"

Totally biased and misleading comments.A few hundred Hindus died but nearly one lac sikhs were killed including figure of 1984 butchery.Regarding migration of Hindus yes some bussiness men left Punjab at peak of the insurgency .But their homes and belongings were safe .All of them returned back.

Unlike Pandits.

2 " the killings of ones own sisters and daughters in dozens evry day in places where sangh/bjp has support."

Haryana and Rajasthan are the worst for Gotra problems States and both are ruled by Congress not BJP.
All the recent cases are from Haryana ruled by Hooda a Congress CM.

Ganpati the topic is RESERVATIONS for Muslims and other minorities like Christians,Sikhs etc.Are you ready to give us back our 15% share out of 50 % reserved Quota which have been fraudulently cornered under the present system ?

You know very well no Govt is in a position to increase 50 % reservations already Courts have laid down.So all these are misleading statements to increase Quota 15% for other Minorities awhich we will never get .Why talk of only Muslims and why not talk of Sikhs,Christians,Jains and other backwards in these communities whose quota has been usurped by the SCs,BCs,Mandalites etc. ?

Did not Sardar Patel said to the delegations of Hyderabadi Muslims who wanted special facilities after 1947 that for these priveledges Pakistan was created.

By the way why no Reservation Quotaes exist in Pakistan and Bangla Desh the ares which parted from us in 1947. Are not majority of the Muslims,Hindus ,Sikhs ,Christians in these Countries backward ? What are the special curcumstances here in India except Votes ?

Salman Khurshid Minister for Minorities fearing this situation had categorically said that the Govt will not be able to give 15 % to Muslims and Christians etc as major overhaul of the present system will have to be done.

Justice Rang Nath Mishra has not said 15 % Quota for Muslims only he said for the left out Minorities.We Christians,Majhbi Sikhs an many others are included in the Report .

"f hinduism is so magnanimous why cant the religious gurus like shankaracharyas announce that same gothra marriage is no wrong(since its permitted in islam is it a magnanimous broadminded religion)and prevent the killings of ones own sisters and daughters in dozens evry day in places where sangh/bjp has support.
ganapathi
chennai, India"

Hi Ganapathi,

I am in no way condoning hinduism or VHP/RSS activities. In fact I am totally with you on the subject of hinduism being one of the most vile religions in the world. Nor am I against the suggestion of reservation for the muslims on caste basis. The point I am trying to make is that a lot of muslims instead of going for education and modern outlook are falling prey to fundamentalism and brainwashing by mullahs, and elite muslims and educated folks are keeping silent.

Maybe mullahs and elites in muslims are keeping poor muslims ignorant so that they can use them as a weapon to preseve their own power.

Sikhs were in the same situation few decades back. Not only did shikhs speak loudly and forcefully against it, but the shikh officers and elite fought against those terrorist and defeated them sucessfully..
Today they are one of the most successful and rich groups in india.
Bharat Paul
SF, United States
dear bharat u have ur history totally wrong.sikh militancy changed the demography of punjab and punjabi hindus who were about 45%in punjab came down to 30s and the number of hindus killed during khalistan movement was in several thousands.
sikh militancy failed because of the casteism as dalit sikhs who form 30% of the sikhs had no role in it and the economically well off jat sikhs lost interest in militancy and withpower in their hands(beant singh the cm and kps gill&co)crushed it.kindly see the attack on the dalit guru in vienna just months back to know the basic cruelty of sikhism.
reservation for muslims on caste basis is a potent weapon to break the stranglehold of mullahs on poor muslims.the hinduism of today is courtesy the reservation policy and ambedkar where its forced to shed all its stripes and is for irritable entertainment only.
if hinduism is so magnanimous why cant the religious gurus like shankaracharyas announce that same gothra marriage is no wrong(since its permitted in islam is it a magnanimous broadminded religion)and prevent the killings of ones own sisters and daughters in dozens evry day in places where sangh/bjp has support.

Akil,

>>>> Read Manusmriti. Hinduism has come a long ways from it, and so will Islam".
>> when will ISLAM reach that "long way"?

Took Hinduism 4000 years to abolish sati and untouchability. Being pessimistic about Islam is a requirement for a sanghi !

"Read Manusmriti. Hinduism has come a long ways from it, and so will Islam".

ANWAAR, when will ISLAM reach that "long way"? WAHABI ISLAM is pulling ISLAM back from the level of progress it had reached. How many more Indians must die before ISLAM reach that "long way". Should the world wait for another 1400 years?

I am not sure what killing of Sikhs, Hindutva, Muslims who ruled India for 800 years etc have to do with the question of quota for Muslims.

R Jagannathan is absolutely right. Just as NREGA benefits are given on socio-economic grounds, the same grounds should be used for all. The needy Muslims would automatically get covered that way and the rich will be excluded. And there will not be any controversy either.

Akil,

>> India must at least remain secular.

I agree. Communalist Hindus and communalist Muslims will have to come to terms with that idea.

Saurabh,

>> evidence that Hinduism also has this all embracing vision about itself ...

Read Manusmriti. Hinduism has come a long ways from it, and so will Islam.

>> show me any entity or say an Islamic counterpart of entities like RSS (and the variants), who actually say something like “We do not want everything as per Quran".

Do RSS and VHP say they do not want any part of the Gita or the Ramayana?

>> Intense hostility and sarcasm?

If you know so little about yourself, how could you know anything about Muslims?

>> More like, who had the tenacity to overcome it.

Tell this to Singhal and Togadia of the VHP who for the past several years have been going from town to town in Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat and other states preaching job discrimination and housing discrimination against Muslims.

ANWAAR, Today a Two Sikhs have been beheaded in Pakistan by JEHADI TERRORIST. It was just gruesome. But that is not the point. One ordinary SIKH person in India was shown reacting to it on TV by saying that all PAKI SIKHS must come to India and he was sure that India will gladly accept them. Such a confident faith in India from a community which face 1984 is the glory of India.

Any religion which does not have a nation of itself will face perpetual persecution- see what JEWS faced till they had their own country. So irrespective of any MUSLIM abuse- India must at least remain secular. If MUSLIMS feel that they are "growing backwards" it is only because of ISLAM and they can convert to any INDIAN RELIGION- SIKHISM, BUDDHISM, JAINISM or even HINDUISM to become part of progressive INDIA.

@Anwaar
>> Such rules exist in all religions to a lesser or greater extent
Some progress then, from same-to-same to lesser or greater extent!
Sabka Malik Ek is a wonderful feeling, but evidence that Hinduism also has this all embracing vision about itself would have been a rarely heard 'educated’ reply, unlike my uneducated (you are showing some range) rants. Just to be sure, we aren’t talking RSS or Hindutva versions. For similar information on Islam (the ‘all-all’ vision), do let me know. Sadly, such information would also be ‘uneducated’ by your educated criticism standards, but they are probably elaborations not criticism.

>> Many modern Muslims have faith in a Supreme Being and his Prophets Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammed, but do not necessarily accept the premise that everything has to be done by pre-set rules

Conveniences of ‘Many’: - ‘Many’ Muslims Insist that everything be done as per pre-set rules. Educated, this one?
Never mind, show me any entity or say an Islamic counterpart of entities like RSS (and the variants), who actually say something like “We do not want everything as per Quran” (pl. note ‘want’ is the operative). Other than the Ahmadiya types. (hope you appreciate the reason about my asking for a non-RSS version for the 1st question and an Islamic counterpart of RSS, for the later.)

>> I do not reciprocate your intense hostility and sarcasm towards Islam.

Intense hostility and sarcasm? Not difficult to see why ‘many’ Muslims all over the world consider themselves to be oppressed.

>> Especially for those who do not suffer from it !
More like, who had the tenacity to overcome it. I never thought, facts could match up to oh-so-cool one liners. Smart work.

Saurabh,

>> Since when has Islam started rejecting the premise “that Quran deals with every aspect of your live?

Such rules exist in all religions to a lesser or greater extent, but faith has to come first. Without faith such rules would be meaningless. Many modern Muslims have faith in a Supreme Being and his Prophets Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammed, but do not necessarily accept the premise that everything has to be done by pre-set rules. I do not reciprocate your intense hostility and sarcasm towards Islam. One can make such uneducated criticism of any religion, but I do not indulge in it.

>> Discrimination bogey is nonsense.

Especially for those who do not suffer from it !

Discrimination bogey is nonsense

Everybody faces discrimination. Biharis and Ups face discrimination in Delhi and Mumbai (besides other places), English medium boys discriminate against vernacular medium guys. Engineering graduates discriminate against B’com or Vice Versa. IIT enggs discriminate against non IITians. MBAs discriminate against non MBAs, IIM guys discriminate against non-IIM MBAs.

Even the Sachar report, the Gospel of discrimination can’t show valid data for that. Forget that it was based on sample surveys, the report itself claims there is no pan India or pan-state trend and argues for district level data to be used for policy making. Interestingly, when Sachar evaluated the conversion rate of Muslims vs. non-Muslims for UPSC, StatePSC exams and IIMs, the conclusion was plain: the conversion rate (called for interviews vs. final selection) for Muslims was same as for Non-Muslims and in some cases even better!!

If Equal Outcome is the only proof for non-existence of Discrimination, then Muslims have a case. As Sachar has also noted in his report, many Muslims insisted on Equal Outcome guarantees rather than Equal opportunity!

Now that is interesting: Islam as a religious faith.
Since when has Islam started rejecting the premise “that Quran deals with every aspect of your live? That includes each and all, right from how to comb your hair to how to wear your pajamas to how and when to make peace with infidels and for how long etc…

It is not even an year, a whole list of Islamic websites went on blabbering ‘communism has failed, capitalism on its way out, time for Islam!

Go ahead and shout Sangha Propaganda? Hate speech? Dumbing down? Imperialist? Zionist?

Akil,

>> Communism was touted as a "way of life".

You may think that comparing communism with a religious faith serves your hate agenda, but it is just dumb. As I have told you before, you should sue your shakha for dumbing you down.

while I dont know if there is any discrimination against muslims, I don't deny the possibility of it.
Majority of indians are and have shown repeatedly to be secular(through election and other action such as protests against Shiv sena for MNIK)
Other minority communities and classes such as Shikhs and Christians don't face any major discrimination..

So if there is any discrimination against muslim, the question becomes why and who's fault is it?

shouldn't these middle class /educated muslims condemn actions of terrorists and terrorists loudly?
In fact they (and well known muslims), if they dont really support terrorists, shouldn't be at the forefront of the protest and demanding stronger action?

I know many of them support indian cause more than saudi arabian or pakistan causes whenever there is some conflict. But shouldn't they voice their protests against mullahs who support non-indian causes over india and mislead ignorant crowds.


Silence of the majority of muslim community and muslim intellectuals is taken as vote of approval of terrorist action by majority of indians.

ts upto muslims to change their image, particularly when india is suffering from fundamentalist Islam terrorism. They have to fight terrorist elements within them both ideologically and using law.

And they have a very good example to follow if they really want to. Sikhs were in the same situation few decades back. Not only did shikhs speak loudly and forcefully against it, but the shikh officers and elite fought against those terrorist and defeated them sucessfully..
Today they are one of the most successful and rich groups in india.

ANWAAR, Communism was touted as a "way of life" which encompassed all aspect of daily life similar to what ISLAM claim it is. Communism when in power/ dominance tried to suppress all other religions similar to what ISLAM does in most MUSLIM MAJORITY countries. When communist countries dis-allowed practice of all other religions, evidently, Communism became the religion of the communist. So when the followers of COMMUNISM could convert from that ideology when they realised that the ideology they were following was PULLING them BACKWARD, there is no reason why followers of ISLAM also can not convert. It is the MUSLIMS themselves who claim that they are becoming BACKWARD as a religious Group and seeking reservation for all MUSLIMS. So MUSLIMS must TRY CONVERTING TO any other religion to check if conversion could improve their plight similar to the improvement of the economic status of the people of erstwhile communist countries.

firstly reservation is given to muslim converts from dalits and obcs.tribal converts like vangujjars already have reservation as tribals retain their reservation irrespective of religion.
it has been done in tamilnadu since long and abdul kalam a tamilian fisherman muslim comes under backward unlike the nawab of arcot or urdu speaking muslims living in tamilnadu.karanataka too has similar reservation for decades.tamilnadu has recently earmarked separate 3.5% resrvation for obc muslims within the obc quota.among judges belonging to the backward classes r in full support of reservation and from the upper castes r against it.i wish that the supreme court quash the entire reservation as it will lead to a mass movement making india a secular socialist proportionately representative republic with adequate representation for all including the judiciary.
i can give the list of dalit/obc judges of the high court/supreme court who r in favour of reservation and u will be surprised that almost all r in favour of reservation.the day there r more judges from these groups reservation will not be blocked by the courts.
women need reservation not because they r poor but because they r underrepresented. the same holds true for all groups
our pledge in schoold should be that in india if there r 100 judges/doctors/ias officers/teachers atleast 50 will be women/15 will be scheduled castes/8 will be tribals/27 will be obcs including muslims and christians etc and we will strive for reaching an equally representative society.
kcr was not responsible for the current telangana imbroglio as the antireservation brahmin dominated andhra court struck down reservation in favour of telengana people in hyderabad and chandrasekhar rao utilised the situation going on fast.
kindly see how the upper castes fought for uttarkhand when the rule uttar pradesh shifted from pants and tiwaris to mulayam/maya.if reservation is squashed we may head for madiganadu/mala pradesh/gujjarkhand/meena land etc.
one of the best schemes to have really improved the lot of poor deprived people in the history of mankind is reservation and its no wonder that the upper castes r against it

why this Anwar from Dallas has to be abusive? an example of the fact that education alone does not bring about maturity ?

Akil,

>> logic which you can not intelligently answer.

The logic of a rabid hate merchant!

>> Communism .....The people who followed that FAITH.

Was communism a faith? Are you a moron?

ANWAAR, Abusing when confronted with logic which you can not intelligently answer does not make the issue vanish. Communism was a way of life and almost a religion.(especially as communism discouraged all religions and aspired to take it's place). The people who followed that FAITH in USSR, East European Countries etc decided to convert when they realised that the ideology they followed- communism, is PULLING THEM BACK while the rest of the world was progressing. So the suggestion for Muslims to convert to alleviate their poverty is worth considering- ignore if you don't agree but why abuse.

Akil,

>> when ever an ideology fails a group of people, frequently they do try another ideology.

Your persisting with this boorishness makes me wonder whether you are ill bred or just stupid.

"claim to be backward"- KUMAR, That claim is of social backwardness and not economic backwardness due to lack of progress. Till date economic progress has never been the criteria for granting backward status. The MUSLIMS are claiming that they have "grown BACKWARD" economically from 1947 and are demanding reservation for all MUSLIMS including NAWABS, NIZAMs, SAYEDS etc.

ANWAAR TOTA, when ever an ideology fails a group of people, frequently they do try another ideology. Failure of Communism resulted in USSR and East European countries converting to different ideology. Even CHINA today has communism in name only. Similarly the followers of ISLAM could also try converting to some other ideology as ISLAM has failed them and converting to Sikhism was suggested due to close commonality with ISLAM.

>> SC/ST/OBC are given reservation for the social discrimination they faced for centuries which could not have been faced by the MUSLIMS who ruled India for more than 800 years.

You started saying that Indian Muslims alone claim to be backward etc. I responded that it is not true, stating that many other sections want to be added among the backward castes etc (and not just the sections of Muslims).

>> All KSHTRIYAS were not kings of India, all Vishyas were not business magnates and all Brahmins were not priests at rich temples

Yes, but is it possible to find a sub-group of Kshatriyas, Vishyas, Brahmins (who generally mingle, identify themselves and marry mainly within that group etc) who can be described as a socially/educational...ionally/economically backward social group?

Akil,

>> the problem just have to be with the ideology of ISLAM.

The conclusion of a shakha trained ignoramus!

KUMAR, SC/ST/OBC are given reservation for the social discrimination they faced for centuries which could not have been faced by the MUSLIMS who ruled India for more than 800 years. Ruling class is a general term and MUSLIMS were certainly the ruling class of India for more than 800 years and continued to be so till 1947. All KSHTRIYAS were not kings of India, all Vishyas were not business magnates and all Brahmins were not priests at rich temples but reservation is not granted even to to the POOREST of them as they did not face social discrimination which the MUSLIMS also would have never faced being the RULING CLASS.

Poor people exist in every community. Why can't economic reservation be sought to be implemented rather than religious reservation for Muslims so that poor irrespective of religion are benefited??

>> while INDIAN MUSLIMS alone feel they have become BACKWARD CLASS

Not just Indian Muslims, many sections in India claim/think they are backward - like dalits, OBCs etc. Even some of the most privileged high castes/classes complain that they are victims and that their religion is attacked etc. The Supreme court has noted 'nowhere in the world, castes queue to be branded as backward. Nowhere is there a competition to become backward'. I disagree with the wording though (no one wants to ‘become backward’, but want to improve by asking for support for being socially/educationally backward)

>> from being the RULING CLASS

A very small section of Indian Muslims can be called as the once ruling class.

>> the problem just have to be with the ideology of ISLAM they adhere to.

You are free to provide your critique of Islamic ideology/theology/history etc in general.

"how obnoxious and offensive"-

Have the Comments of ANWAAR dripping with honey? When all the communities in India from majority community- HINDUS to the minuscule communities PARSEES and JEWS feel that they have progressed substantially while INDIAN MUSLIMS alone feel they have become BACKWARD CLASS from being the RULING CLASS they were till 1947, the problem just have to be with the ideology of ISLAM they adhere to. So suggestion to change the ideology which is pulling them BACKWARD by opting for another is just a natural reaction.

Akil,

>> The decline of ISLAM world over coincides with brute force- saber rattling horse men.

Wishful thinking on your part, but sad to see you turn out to be just a run of the mill hate peddler.

The decline of ISLAM world over coincides with brute force- saber rattling horse men- being replaced by technological advancement. Diverting what ever IQ available to useless activity like mugging up qur'an and their insistence on always projecting a separate distinct identity is the reason why Muslims have not been able to secure jobs.

Akil,

>> MUSLIMS haven't slipped due to job discrimination but because they waste time by-hearting QUR'AN.

You are not aware of the degree of job discrimination and its impact on the psyche and morale of the young. Even if you ar awareof it you will still deny it!

>> converting to another religion temporarily is drastic, but if it could improve the living standard of 13-15% of Indian population it is worth a try.

If you do not know how obnoxious and offensive your suggestion is, you must truly be an idiot. Or maybe you purposely want to be offensive since all your arguments are being shot down!

MUSLIMS haven't slipped due to job discrimination but because they waste time by-hearting QUR'AN while they should be studying, even if they attend normal school. During vacations when other children prepare for the studies ahead, Muslim Children attend QUR'AN classes wearing skull cap. So they are left behind in competitive exams are seeking easy way out by demanding reservation.

When one minority group alone feel that they have "GROWN BACKWARD" while all other minorities in India do not feel so, it calls for drastic action. Reservation on religious lines will fracture the country as it happened pre-1947 which is not acceptable. Evidently, converting to another religion temporarily is drastic, but if it could improve the living standard of 13-15% of Indian population it is worth a try. If it doesn't work Muslims can always re-convert to ISLAM.

If poverty is the concern why not try for ECONOMIC RESERVATION which will benefit all the poor irrespective of their religion and be within the secular character of India.

If Muslims really want to progress why don't they start by having fewer wives and fewer children? Quality is better than quantity. We have a population problem, for heaven's sake. Also, if this country really wants to become a world superpower it is going to do this by giving jobs to the best qualified people, otherwise it is going to end up like a banana republic. Giving quotas indiscriminately only encourages and rewards unbridled population growth. Quotas should not be given to anyone who has more than two children, whatever their religion.

Akil,

>> if MUSLIMS alone feel that they have become a BACKWARD CLASS from being a RULING CLASS.

Dalit Muslims were always backward. Middle class Muslims on the other hand have slipped because of job discrimination. Muslims have experienced a lot more job discrimination than Jews, Parsis, Sikhs etc, however much you may deny it.

>> To confirm if it is ISLAM which is "pulling them back" while others are progressing, the Indian Muslims should convert to some other religion.

Such stupid and hateful suggestions can come only from a gutter level shakha graduate.

ANWAAR, Non the minorities in India- Christians, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhist, Parsees, Jews and even TIBETAN BUDDHIST claim that they are worst off than they were in 1947. Evidently if MUSLIMS alone feel that they have become a BACKWARD CLASS from being a RULING CLASS they were till 1947, it has to have something to do with the ideology they follow- ISLAM. To confirm if it is ISLAM which is "pulling them back" while others are progressing, the Indian Muslims should convert to some other religion. SIKHISM would be ideal religion for conversion of MUSLIMS as SIKHISM also 1- believes in one god. 2- does not believe in living Guru. 3- Does NOT believe in IDOL WORSHIP. 4- Is a smaller minority than MUSLIMs but are very prosperous. SO THE INDIAN MUSLIMS SHOULD CONVERT TO SIKHISM TO IMPROVE THEIR CONDITION. If it doesn't work out Muslims can always convert back to ISLAM.

>> The vast majority of Indian Muslims were dalits. Those from the "ruling class" should not get reservations. Methods exist to say who is who.

Agree on this. If Dalits amongst Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs are getting reservations, the same privileges should be available to those from other religions too.

At the same time, the special privileges extended to minority communities for setting up and running institutions with tax payers' funds should be withdrawn.

Akil,

>> If reservation is given based on caste system, some MULLAH will claim it unislamic as Islam does not have caste.

Your last point was answered, so now you come up with this new point! It seems sanghis can never accept defeat graciously!

If reservation is given based on caste system, some MULLAH will claim it unislamic as Islam does not have caste. Actually it is the Muslims who tie themselves in knots and blame everyone else for their plight- not only in India but all over the world.

Akil,

>> How can MUSLIMS who ruled India for 800 years like HYDRABADI MUSLIM who were the ruling class till 1947 ever demand reservation?

The vast majority of Indian Muslims were dalits. Those from the "ruling class" should not get reservations. Methods exist to say who is who.

How can MUSLIMS who ruled India for 800 years like HYDRABADI MUSLIM who were the ruling class till 1947 ever demand reservation?????
If MUSLIMS have reached the plight of DALITS in 62 years from 1947, the blame must entirely rest with the MUSLIM community. Progressive ideas were discouraged by MUSLIM LEADERSHIP resulting in the present plight of MUSLIMS.